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Thread: Flight before wrights?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Bryan View Post
    You're right about Farman, but not about all previous flights - the Wrights flew their Flyer II in a 360 circle for the first time in 1904, and had flights up to nearly 5 kilometers. In 1905, Wilbur flew the Flyer III for more than half an hour, circling over Huffman Prairie and covering something like 38 kilometers.

    Farman's flight was recognized because he had (or allowed) two things the Wrights' didn't: Publicity, and a predetermined course. It didn't help that the European press routinely called the Wrights liars at the time...
    I stand corrected. My information on the Farman flight came from an article Griffith Borgeson wrote for Automobile Quarterly in 1975. I guess Voisin and the European press bitterly resented the fact that the Wrights had beaten them to it. I gather that Voisin was obsessed with this until his death in 1973.
    Jeremy Leasor

  2. #12
    danielfindling's Avatar
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    Nova did a nice documentary on another early aviation pioneer before the Wrights Alberto Santos Dumont.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=hU9A8...%3DhU9A81yIYTI

  3. #13
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    Santos Dumont was a fascinating figure. When we (Microsoft) shipped the "Century of Flight" edition of Flight Simulator, we weren't allowed to sell it in Brazil until the local distributor added some stickers to the box celebrating Dumont and shrink wrapped a CD with a version of his 14-bis that could be flown in the sim.

    Hal Bryan
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  4. #14
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    I hadn't had the chance to read any of the articles that seemed to be suddenly popping up about Whitehead, so I didn't realize why he was "spontaneously" back in the news until this morning. Apparently, according to this article, the next edition of Jane's is going to credit him as the first:

    http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/...st-4348050.php

    Hal Bryan
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  5. #15

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    Hal, that new news story is why I wrote about this 3 days ago; but maybe my piece was not that clearly written.
    When the Whitehead thing came up in the past, I looked into it then, but certainly couldn't conclude that there was any real evidence that he actually flew it back then.
    I have read some of the new stuff and still have doubts. First, of some of the newspaper articles referred to, many are not from the area, such as one that is even from Australia. These certainly aren't eyewitness reports, they really are just reprinted stories not much more than hearsay.
    Also, the museum pushing this has an obvious interest in it, not really unbiased.
    There is a claim that the modern replica actually flew,but then the story says it really was pulled aloft by a car, which is a far cry from a solo powered controlled flight. And Cliff Robertson was a friend, a nice guy, and a glider pilot. But I doubt if he was the top selection if you were looking for a test pilot for a real first flight of a powered replica.
    If there was a replica built, that was exact down to even the engine and props, and it really flew, then I think it would make the news. Not something pulled by a car as thousands of gliders or even hang gliders are today, or something with a modern engine or props.
    And there was photography back then. We have many photos of the civil war, of Wyatt Earp, of Geronimo, of Davy Crockett, etc. etc. and of course the Wrights in flight. It does not stand to reason that Gustave did all these flights and yet there is no real photo evidence.
    Frankly, I could be wrong, but this seems like an alien campaign to me. Lot's of stories, but no proof. And the Wright Bros plane and planes survive today, they are not myths. Where is the original Whitehead plane?
    Maybe they will bring the replica to EAA again this year, i'd love to have another look at it, and specifically what the control system, if any, is like.
    Maybe they could even run the replica engine just as EAA has run Wright engine.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 03-14-2013 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #16
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    Well, it only took 109 years to right the wrong and provide Whitehead with his due credit for one of historys greatest events. And the conclusion is not based on new evidence, but rather the same documented evidence that existed 111 years ago in the form of newspaper reports and technical journals of the day.

    So there are many "whys" that still remain unanswered.

    Why didn't Whitehead receive the acclaim and notoriety he deserved at the time of first flight plus repeated flights?

    Why weren't the Wrights discredited as being first at the time they flew?

    In the face of the overwhelming evidence of the time, why was Whitehead overlooked in favour of the Wrights? For this answer one might have to look deep inside the soul and psyche of America itself. As has too often been the case historically, perhaps 2 all-American bicycle shop owners from Dayton were far more marketable and appealing than a lowly German immigrant from Conn. Discrimination? Possibly? Likely?

    If I was one of Whitehead's decendants, I think I'd have very mixed emotions.
    Last edited by Floatsflyer; 03-14-2013 at 03:22 PM.

  7. #17

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    Floats, your suggestion of discrimination against Whitehead in favor of the all American Wrights does not hold water.

    If Whitehead did achieve real controlled powered flight in Aug. 1901, but did not receive recognition then, it certainly wasn't because of and in favor of the Wrights AT THAT TIME.

    Virtually no one knew much about the Wrights until they actually flew, they weren't the celebrities or favorites before then and even after they flew, it was some time before the world and general public really knew about them.

    The were many people and inventors in the U S back then who had in some way come from the old country and we had not yet had WW I or II with Germany so it was not the parahia that it was by the 1940's.

    I don't think Whitehead got the recognition because there was not the proof.

    One more fact, that of density altitude. The myth says Whitehead flew in Aug. at a time of year when it is hot and the air thin. One of the reasons the Wrights were able to do their first flight was that it was in cold weather in Dec, and they later had trouble when they tried to fly back home in Ohio in the summer. It's hard to believe that Whitehead would not have this trouble too.

    Another dubious point, did Whitehead really do something monumental that people had tried for years to do, and then just drop it after succeeding? Not likely and not what the Wrights did.

    For true believers, I can get you a photo of Whitehead's first flight. Just send me $10,000 and I'll get one printed up. And for $100,000 I can get you one of his plane in flight with you in the cockpit. For just a little more, say $1 million, we can have the photo show it flying inverted around the Statue of Liberty.
    Now I am not that good with photoshop, but I know someone who is.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 03-14-2013 at 04:11 PM.

  8. #18
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Hal, that new news story is why I wrote about this 3 days ago; but maybe my piece was not that clearly written.
    Not at all, Bill - I was aware that there was a lot of Whitehead buzz as there is every several years, but, to me, the kicker was the fact that Jane's was going to "rule" in his favor, so to speak. That's the part that I didn't catch until I actually had a moment to read the article that you were referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Maybe they will bring the replica to EAA again this year, i'd love to have another look at it, and specifically what the control system, if any, is like.
    Same here.

    Hal Bryan
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  9. #19
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    Bill, my suggestion wasn't meant to hold water or any other liquid, merely a possible answer/theory as to "why". In the absence of anything else that makes sense, I think it should at least be considered and discussed. Now that Jane's has given the recognition, the fascinating and confounding thing for me is all the "whys" I desribed. Jane's has major cred and the "proof" provided to them is good enough for them so it's good enough for me and others.


    I wasn't referring to Whitehead's country of birth/nationality at all, just that he was an immigrant. We're all immigrants or the children of immigrants. But there has been a prevailing historical negative attitude amongst first, second, etc generation Americans towards current immigrants in any timeframe.
    Last edited by Floatsflyer; 03-14-2013 at 04:01 PM.

  10. #20

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    For holders of a Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award, you should watch the mail for a small sticker that says "second place" so you can update your award.

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