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Thread: Experimentals for hire?

  1. #11

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    91.319 (a) (1&2) governs all aircraft issued an experimental certificate.

    It says you cannot Operate the aircraft for
    1. purposes other than what it is defined on your certificate "recreation and education"
    2. For carrying persons or cargo for compensation or hire.

    Fact.....
    Therefore I cannot accept money or any compensation to perform a training flight. Contravenes 91.319 (a) 1
    And I cannot fly mail from one airport to the next for money. Contravenes 91.319 (a) 2.

    Renting is not operating. Renting is not carrying person or cargo for compensation or hire. Renting does not contravene "recreation or education". If someone accepts money to pilot the aircraft then I see a problem. If someone uses the aircraft for something other than recreation, I see a problem.

    I will add this too, if you read further down, the FAA prohibits leasing (renting) LSA. LSA also have an experimental certificate. So wouldn't it been redundant to add the rule if (by your argument) 91.319 (a) took care of that.

    So that's why I ask if there is a rule similar to 91.319 (f) that prohibits leasing or renting an experimental.

  2. #12

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    Ok I was using the wrong term here I should have used the word lease instead of rent

    Can I dry lease an experimental amateur built aircraft to someone for their own recreational purpose (flying over the Everglades for example).

    I know you cannot do it with a LSA due to 91.319 (f). But is there something similar for EABs

  3. #13
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    Ok I was using the wrong term here I should have used the word lease instead of rent

    Can I dry lease an experimental amateur built aircraft to someone for their own recreational purpose (flying over the Everglades for example).

    I know you cannot do it with a LSA due to 91.319 (f). But is there something similar for EABs
    The problem is, if you ask *us*, all you're going to get is opinions. If there's something specific you want to do, you'd best speak to the FAA.

    Besides, asking for a quote for specific regulations that prohibit that activity is not want you want. You want regulations or ACs that apparently permit leasing homebuilts. The FAA has always interpreted the regulations as prohibiting any commercial use of homebuilt aircraft. The FAA is allowed to issue waivers to allow renting homebuilts for transitional training, but even that's an iffy prospect. Unless you can point to something official that allows leasing the aircraft, they'll consider commercial use as outside the rules.

    Ron Wanttaja

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    The problem is, if you ask *us*, all you're going to get is opinions. If there's something specific you want to do, you'd best speak to the FAA.

    Besides, asking for a quote for specific regulations that prohibit that activity is not want you want. You want regulations or ACs that apparently permit leasing homebuilts. The FAA has always interpreted the regulations as prohibiting any commercial use of homebuilt aircraft. The FAA is allowed to issue waivers to allow renting homebuilts for transitional training, but even that's an iffy prospect. Unless you can point to something official that allows leasing the aircraft, they'll consider commercial use as outside the rules.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Ok thanks. That puts it in perspective.

  5. #15

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    How about a person starting a club with only EAB single seaters and having them available to the club members to fly. They pay a pay in fee, then monthly dues but can fly any of the single seat EAB the club owns.

    I thought about doing this. Maybe buying 10 eab's single seaters and starting a club as this. Maybe even have a few ultralights for the low and slow days or lazy days.

    Can this be done, and would you join such a club?

    Fly Smart

  6. #16

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    That's a good point. I also emailed the FAA asking about this issue, because the general rule is that I cannot rent an aircraft for flight training. The FAR prohibit that.

    But there seems to be two opinions about renting for personal use. One is that's its commercial and a no no. The other is once you are properly rated and not using the aircraft to carry passengers for hire its ok.

    The FAA defines leasing an aircraft Dry is non commercial.

    Unlike light sport aircraft that has particular reasons it can be leased there seem to be no restrictions on E-AB except it cannot be used for flight training.

  7. #17

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    What IS legal is 5 guys pooling their money and purchasing an E-AB as a partnership. Please note that for legal business purposed, a partnership and a "club" can be different. Not always, but can be. So this is where you start talking to a lawyer to make sure your ownership is set up correctly to avoid running afoul the the FAR's.

    Now one challenge of the partnership may be how you buy in and sell out. That may require a bill of sale from the old partnership to the new partnership to change the list of names on the FAA records. But those mechanics are not expensive.

    But we are talking about ONE airplane owned by multiple people. Each airplane would be a separate partnership, even if the paperwork was duplicated.

    So if you have sent a formal inquiry to the FAA, I hope that it was addressed to the Office of the Chief Counsel. That is the only FAA organization that can issue an opinion that carries any weight. What you get from your local FSDO is the opinion of one inspector and that opinion does not carry any weight with any other inspector or the rest of the FAA. A letter from the Office of the Chief Counsel is actually a legal statement that the entire FAA must honor. The EAA and its divisions have obtained a few of these opinions over the years to clarify issues. An example is the United States Parachute Association asking the Chief Counsel whether skydivers are "passengers" as defined in the FAR's that prohibit formation flight during commercial passenger carrying operations. The official answer is "NO" and you will see formations of aircraft dropping skydivers. All of the local FSDO's must honor the Chief Counsel's declaration of the legality of that operation.

    Hope this helps,

    Wes
    N78PS
    Last edited by WLIU; 03-06-2013 at 07:15 AM.

  8. #18

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    I do not mean to Hi-jack this thread and will start a new one if needed. But I have a couple questions.

    What does the FAA allow. Club or Partnership?

  9. #19

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    The FAA allows both so long as the ownership and operation conform to the FAR's. And that is likely the answer that you will get from your FSDO.

    That said, a C-182, which is a Normal category aircraft, may be used for compensation or hire and can be owned and operated by either type of entity, as well as other categories of corporations, etc.

    Since the original poster is poking into a corner of the FAR's that has likely not been fully explored, the nuances of how partnerships and clubs are formally organized and operated become important to the FAA. This may be one of the regulatory "coffin corners" of the flight envelope to make a bad comparison. Or as the older sci-fi fans might announce, "Danger Will Robinson!"

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS

  10. #20
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    How about a person starting a club with only EAB single seaters and having them available to the club members to fly. They pay a pay in fee, then monthly dues but can fly any of the single seat EAB the club owns.

    I thought about doing this. Maybe buying 10 eab's single seaters and starting a club as this. Maybe even have a few ultralights for the low and slow days or lazy days.
    Been there, done that. I was a member of a club that operated Pete Bowers' original Fly Baby as a club for ten years. We paid an initiation fee, monthly fees to cover hangar and insurance, and $5 an hour (dry). Happy times for ten years. Of course, I was the only guy paying dues or flying the airplane for much of that time. Pete retained ownership of the airplane, and the club ended when he sold it. Participants had to be members of Chapter 26 to join.

    in the hangar next to us was the Story Special Flying Club, operating That airplane for nearly 50 years as a flying club. In their case, it was a co-ownership, with four memberships. By then end, around 1999, memberships were selling for $1500.

    So a club is a way to do what you want. As long as you don't give the appearance of renting or leasing the airplane, you'll probably be fine.

    Ron Wanttaja

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