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Thread: Experimentals for hire?

  1. #1

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    Experimentals for hire?

    Good day folks. I'm new here and I am researching a controversial topic.

    I refer only to experimental amateur built aircraft issued a Certificate under part 21.191 (g)

    Can you rent an aircraft issued an E-AB certificate if not can you direct me to the prohibiting part and para?
    Please note I don't mean renting for training but renting for someone to make a recreational flight.
    Last edited by Stolpilot; 03-05-2013 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    Good day folks. I'm new here and I am researching a controversial topic.

    I refer only to experimental amateur built aircraft issued a Certificate under part 21.191 (g)

    Can you rent an aircraft issued an E-AB certificate if not can you direct me to the prohibiting part and para?
    Please note I don't mean renting for training but renting for someone to make a recreational flight.
    The following are quotes from an article on the EAA website. No controversy here, these restrictions are well-established.

    The specific section of Part 91 that deals with experimental aircraft operating limitations is 14 CFR 91.319, titled Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.Right at the beginning of this regulation you’ll find the following:
    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate –
    (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
    (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.


    Regardless of what type of experimental certificate the aircraft holds, be it amateur-built, experimental light-sport aircraft, exhibition, or what have you, the operating limitations will contain the following verbiage:
    No person may operate this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.


    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 03-05-2013 at 09:36 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
    The following are quotes from an article in Sport Aviation:

    The specific section of Part 91 that deals with experimental aircraft operating limitations is 14 CFR 91.319, titled Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.Right at the beginning of this regulation you’ll find the following:
    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate –
    (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
    (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.


    Regardless of what type of experimental certificate the aircraft holds, be it amateur-built, experimental light-sport aircraft, exhibition, or what have you, the operating limitations will contain the following verbiage:
    No person may operate this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

    Ok but are you saying that renting and aircraft to a pilot is "carrying persons for compensation or hire" because it isn't. And secondly the certificate is issued for recreation and education and I asked if you can rent an E-AB to someone for recreational purposes

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    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    Ok but are you saying that renting and aircraft to a pilot is "carrying persons for compensation or hire" because it isn't. And secondly the certificate is issued for recreation and education and I asked if you can rent an E-AB to someone for recreational purposes
    The answer is NO. You can argue this point all you want with the FAA (and insurance carriers) but you will lose the argument.
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    I'm not even sure what point I'm arguing. 319 is clear, "You cannot OPERATE an EAB for purposes other than recreation and education (certificated purpose) or for carrying persons or cargo for compensation or hire." UNDERSTOOD

    Renting the aircraft is not operating aircraft. Or are you saying it is?

    So what i am trying to find is the part and para the prohibits renting aircraft to someone for his or her recreation and not operating against what is stated In 91.319 (a) (1&2).

  6. #6
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    I'm not even sure what point I'm arguing. 319 is clear, "You cannot OPERATE an EAB for purposes other than recreation and education (certificated purpose) or for carrying persons or cargo for compensation or hire." UNDERSTOOD

    Renting the aircraft is not operating aircraft. Or are you saying it is?

    So what i am trying to find is the part and para the prohibits renting aircraft to someone for his or her recreation and not operating against what is stated In 91.319 (a) (1&2).
    I'm having a bit of trouble following your line of discussion, but are you are inquiring about merely renting an aircraft with no intention of anyone flying it? If so, I suppose this wouldn't be a violation of FARs since no aviating would be involved.......kinda wondering what kind of "recreation" you have in mind.....
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    Carrying persons for compensation or hire could be common carriage or private carriage it involves physically transporting persons or cargo from one point to the next for some kind of payment. FAA says it does t have to be money, it could be hours etc. Common carriage would involve holding out the public.

    Renting is neither common or private carriage. So 91.319 (a) (2) does not apply to my question.

    So Mr Joe Public wishes to use my plane, he is the pilot, and he is going on his own recreational flight (by himself), can I accept money for that. Keep in mind I am not carrying him, he is going on his own, he has operational control of the aircraft during the rental agreement.

    Is there a rule that prohibits that?

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    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    Carrying persons for compensation or hire could be common carriage or private carriage it involves physically transporting persons or cargo from one point to the next for some kind of payment. FAA says it does t have to be money, it could be hours etc. Common carriage would involve holding out the public.

    Renting is neither common or private carriage. So 91.319 (a) (2) does not apply to my question.

    So Mr Joe Public wishes to use my plane, he is the pilot, and he is going on his own recreational flight (by himself), can I accept money for that. Keep in mind I am not carrying him, he is going on his own, he has operational control of the aircraft during the rental agreement.

    Is there a rule that prohibits that?
    Yes. Aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate cannot be used for commercial purposes. If you accept payment for the use of the plane (regardless of how it is used or by whom) that is considered a commercial use of the aircraft (renting).

    You can allow your friend to fly your aircraft and he can purchase fuel to top it up when he returns but he cannot pay you for the use of the plane.
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    Can you direct me to that rule?

  10. #10
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolpilot View Post
    Can you direct me to that rule?
    I did in my first reply.
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