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Thread: Parking in the North 40

  1. #21

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    However you slice it, the N 40 is cramped, and the S 40 is very open, and I think that calling the Cessnas and Bonanzas that park in the S 40 "showplanes" is semantics, there being no substantive difference between those of the '60s and the '70s, and the planes are largely not treated as showplanes. People just fly in and pitch a tent. 99% of them do not put out a display plaque or sign, don't clean the planes, nothing, for the show. It looks like the N 40, except that it's more wide open.

    I'm sure the S 40 likes their elbow room, but I do think that, as the years have marched on, adjustment needs to be made to reallocate parking/camping availability, as newer planes are as valued to the show as older ones, and pay just as much money to be there, camp, etc.

    Keeping the flight line more open? Makes no sense per this discussion. There is very little traffic through the South 40. I've witnessed that for 20 years. The area of congestion is Show Center, where there is no airplane camping by anyone. Flight line operations rarely use taxilanes through camping areas--and I say rarely, optimistically. I've never seen air show planes taxying through vintage camping areas, between planes with tents. If it happens, it's rare. Like I say, I've been going for.....since 1989.

    Safety? The congestion in the N 40 far surpasses the openness of the S 40, and planes come and go much more frequently up there, because of the congestion--and around more tents and pedestrians, again due to the congestion.

    Discussion in favor of keeping things cramped in the N 40, of not adjusting the year to 1980 or something for planes to go to the S 40, of keeping the S 40 open like it is, seems less based on the needs of the show than on

    (1) the desire of the S 40 to keep its elbow room, and
    (2) inertia, of keeping things as they are, even though years march on with more newer planes needing to find parking.

    Jen

  2. #22
    Rick Rademacher's Avatar
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    For many times in the eighty’s, I was happy just to be able to land at Oshkosh. The north 40 was so much better than having to land and camp at Fond du Lac. When EAA changed the years so that my 1959 182 would be guaranteed a space at Oshkosh, I spent a lot of time camping in the south 40. In 2003, my 46 Piper Cub was parked on the runway side of the south 40 taxiway which didn’t allow me to camp under my wings. That was one of the last aircraft saturated years.
    So, things have changed in recent years as fewer aircraft fly into Oshkosh and as people have more sophisticated needs and desires. Just don't asked to be parked where the round engines have always been parked if your engine is not round!
    Last edited by Rick Rademacher; 02-26-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  3. #23
    Cary's Avatar
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    Since the only "choices" for camping according to the annual NOTAM are GAC and VAC, I'm curious how anyone can say that those who camp in the South 40 do so because of increased room. My first few visits to OSH, we parked in the North 40, because we put up the GAC sign, and that's where we were directed to go. When we camped in the South 40 the first time, it was because of the preceding week's rains that virtually flooded the North 40, and so having an older airplane meant we could camp at OSH and not elsewhere, so we put up the VAC sign. We taxied where we were told to taxi, and mostly we were thankful that we got to camp on the OSH grounds--there were many that year who had to camp at other airports.

    When I camped there the second time, I put up the GAC sign, and I still ended up in the South 40, because that's where I was directed to go. Had I had a choice, I would have preferred the North 40, compared to being in the 3rd from the last row south in the South 40--it was quite a hike just to the bus stop, after they moved the stop farther north after the first big rain of the week, and the shower trailer was a good block away, also.

    Last year I again put up the GAC sign, and this time I was directed to the North 40.5, north of 9-27. That was convenient to the BP station to get ice and to Friar Tuck's and the other restaurants close off the grounds, but a long way from the show. But the bus service was good, and I had my bicycle, too, so it wasn't any problem to get around.

    And yet, although the amenities were a bit more inconvenient in either the far South 40 or the North 40.5, how could I complain? Or why would I? Regardless of where I was camped, I was at OSH, I had a great week with lots of fun, met a lot of great people, and thoroughly enjoyed myself as always.

    So I guess what I'm saying is that except for the GAC vs. VAC choice, there really isn't a whole lot of choice when pilots have to go where they're directed to go by the volunteers. So instead of complaining about this or that, just be glad to be there! None of us knows when our flying days will be curtailed, whether by the government, economics, or our health. Enjoy it while you can!

    Cary
    "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...,
    put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    The south 40 eligibility is based on year of manufacture under the judging rules for Vintage. It's steadily crept up over the twenty years I've been coming from the end of 1965 to the end of 1970.
    So, in 20 years the date of vintage aircraft has only increased by 5 years? Is that because of the flood of Cessnas that would be in vintage if it had crept up year for year over that time? (Would be aircraft mfr'ed through 1985 now).

  5. #25
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    It's up to Vintage to decide what membership they want to address. What you have to realize is the stuff in the North 40 is NOT showplanes. Every other camping/parking section represents a distinct membership organization in the EAA: Custom (homebuilts), Warbirds, Ultralights, IAC, Vintage. I suppose if they created a late model spam camp division of the EAA, they could lobby for their own showplane area as well.

  6. #26
    JimRice85's Avatar
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    Why do they change the year at all? 1945 has been the cut off for antiques for decades. My 1946 Swift and J-3 Cub, classics are older now, 65 years, than a 1931 Stinson was when Vintage was started. They haven't changed the criteria, yet, they created contemporary and continue to expand it. Funny, antiques at one time was anything 50 years old or older. Why aren't straight tail and fast back 172s, 108 series Stinsons and Tripacers antiques and allowed to park with the rich big dogs with the Wacos, round engine Stinsons and Staggerwings?
    Last edited by JimRice85; 03-01-2013 at 11:10 AM.
    Jim Rice
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    N4WJ 1994 Van's RV-4 (Flying)
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    It's up to Vintage to decide what membership they want to address. What you have to realize is the stuff in the North 40 is NOT showplanes. Every other camping/parking section represents a distinct membership organization in the EAA: Custom (homebuilts), Warbirds, Ultralights, IAC, Vintage. I suppose if they created a late model spam camp division of the EAA, they could lobby for their own showplane area as well.
    You know, half the planes who are "vintage" are not "showplanes," either. It's just a decision to allow them to park/camp in the S 40 due to their year. It's arbitrary, semantics.

    And the discussion isn't about different membership organizations in the EAA but the space allocated for parking/camping during Airventure.

    The N 40 is cramped, T'd parking, as I've shown in a posted overhead photo....while the space in the S 40 is soooo roomy.

    It's not about each organization having itself; it's about how much space is allotted for them.

    The cramped, crowded conditions in the N 40 could be relieved in a number of ways:

    • Since the calendar keeps on creeping on, "Vintage" could be moved up from 1970 to 1980. I think the crowd would not know or care that planes up to 1980 got to park south, and crowding in N 40 could be lessened. It would also increase membership in Vintage. (What is "Vintage" has to change, I'd think, as the calendar marches forward.)
    • Some section of the land in the S-40 could be re-allocated to newer planes, even if the years for Vintage were not adjusted.
    • There are areas south of show central that are not on the S 40 flight line, either—such as the field S of the field S of Theatre in the Woods, yet also West of Wittman Road, hidden by trees, where tourists rarely even go, that are not affected by any airshow or flightline concerns at all—that could be used for more modern aircraft...
    • Other ways if willing and creative.


    If more comfortably accommodating all EAA members / paid attendees who fly in was a consideration, it could easily be done, and I'm in favor of it.

    It's crowded in the N 40. For those who didn't see the overhead photo, here it is.
    Name:  OSH N 40 Parking.jpg
Views: 646
Size:  102.6 KB

    Jen

  8. #28
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    By EAA definition, homebuilts, warbirds, ultralights, rotorcraft, and vintage ARE showplanes regardless of how pretty they are. Your late model spam can is not. I know you don't think it's fair, but that's the way the EAA runs. People don't come to see an 80's era POS Cherokee.

    All the parking south of the COM shack/ Vintage Red Barn with the exception of the Ultralight area and three rows next to the Zaugs trailers is Vintage. The area you are talking about (between the Theatre in the woods/Red Barn back to the Hangar Cafe area, is prime Vintage real estate. The first four or five rows of that are reserved for the pre-1945 stuff as well.

    Admittedly show plane parking got scrunched when the FAA made us give more clear space to the taxiway after the DC-3 excursion into the ditch. Such is what you have to do if you want an airshow (they weren't even real happy several years ago when the field was soupy and we parked people in the paved ditch). They wanted those planes (no people were present) out of there before the airshows. Vintage got a little space back when they moved the homebuilt camping up further north. Of course, both homebuilts and Vintage are losing space again because the chalets are getting built in what was parking areas for these groups. Vintage also freqently loses rows up near show center when there are special displays. These USED to go across the road but the EAA has found paying exhibitors for that space.

  9. #29
    Cary's Avatar
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    Your late model spam can is not. I know you don't think it's fair, but that's the way the EAA runs. People don't come to see an 80's era POS Cherokee.
    This is really unnecessary name-calling. I for one (and there are many others like me) enjoy wandering the lines in the North 40 and the South 40 to see airplanes, period. The owner of any 20 or 30 year old airplane which has been lovingly maintained or restored doesn't need his/her pride and joy villified by calling it a spam can or POS anything.

    As it happens, my 50 year old airplane has been mistaken many times for a much newer airplane--in fact, the first time I parked in the South 40 because it qualified for VAC, I had some arrogant know-it-all snidely ask how it was that I was able to park there with my newer airplane.

    Perhaps we can all agree that EAA should revisit how airplanes are parked at Airventure, but the North 40 isn't nearly as tightly crowded as some have suggested here, nor is the South 40 a hugely desirable luxurious wide open area--it gives up the desirable luxury by being as far from the activities as it's possible and still be at OSH. Here's a Google maps pic of the 2011 set-up: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oshkos...h&z=15&iwloc=A. At the time it was taken, the rows south of my airplane had grown to 8--there were 3 rows behind my row when I was first parked there on Sunday. The fact is, when you choose to fly into the busiest airport in the world, parking will not be perfect. But you'll be there, and with the right attitude, you'll have a good time. Really!

    Cary
    "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...,
    put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

  10. #30
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    I've got no problem withe the EAA adjusting things. They HAVE adjusted things continually in the twenty four years I've been attending Oshkosh.
    Sorry about the POS comment, but that doesn't change the fundamental fact that will be TOUGH to change at Oshkosh. The north 40 "GA" aircraft are NOT part of the show. While they finally have a liaison appointed, they are not represented by the an EAA membership organization like WOA, IAC, Vintage, UL, etc... It is essentially nothing more than a parking lot, no different than the auto lots for people attending, rather than being PART of the show.

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