Best affordable STOL light piston twin?

[Bob Dingley]

Lets see... Pretending that its a big 172.... After our Sheriff Dept's UL pot scout, they aquired a very nice 172. It was hangared three rows down from my hangar. Most days two deputies showed up for the pot mission.

Until they stalled it at low altitude. One dep is still on permanent disability. There are no more pot missions. This is not talked about anymore. In all my military/Com/ GA flying, one fact shows up: Its NOT the aircraft, its how you use it.

[Floatsflyer]

...one fact shows up: Its NOT the aircraft, its how you use it.

In Jan. 2004, during a freezing rain storm , a Caravan 208B operated by a scheduled carrier crashed into a frozen over Lake Erie on a short flight from Pelee Island, Ontario to Windsor, Ontario shortly after take-off. The single pilot and all 9 passengers perished. The TSB found the factors contributing to the crash included exceeding MTOW by 15%(450kg), airframe icing(no de-icing equipment at departure airport), pilot fatigue and that standard assumptions for the calculation of passenger weights did not reflect "the increased average weight related to the broad changes in lifestyle and travel preferences of passengers."

Marty, as a high time Caravan pilot with lots of hands-on personal insight on the aircraft I thought you might be interested in scanning the TSB report:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...1/a04h0001.pdf

[martymayes]

Marty, as a high time Caravan pilot with lots of hands-on personal insight on the aircraft I thought you might be interested in scanning the TSB report:

I am familiar with the Air Georgian accident at Pelee Island. The day it happened, I was flying into DTW and flew just few miles S. of Pelee Is. (not in a Caravan) when the SAR was in progress. In 2009, I met the lead accident investigator at Cessna who had participated in the Canada TSB investigation.

[WLIU]

I will suggest that since the original poster does not appear to intend to operate an aircraft in bad weather and above max gross, that history is probably not relevant. We can find lots of bad history under those conditions for low budget Part 135 operations in all types of aircraft. I will also note that poor airmanship is not confined to Sheriff's departments. And law enforcement flight departments can have very good records.

The state of California operated a fleet of Cessna 185's for a number of years for various law enforcement surveillance duties. My understanding is that they did all the right maintenance and had good reliability. I will suggest that the record shows that a well maintained single is as reliable as a twin.

But the posts above are examples of how what ever aircraft the original poster buys, a good maintenance program, coupled with appropriate standards for pilot qualifications are equally important. I have observe that folks focus on buying the hardware and don't think beyond that. The plan has to address the entire life of the program to be successful. Alternately, it is really really easy to go broke in aviation really fast. I have spent a lot of years watching folks go broke in aviation.

But all of this is beyond the scope of the original question.

Best of luck,

Wes

[Mayhemxpc]

Random thoughts for the original post:

How much does a system cost? A rule of thumb in military procurement is the cost to buy the unit plus three times that cost for repair, maintenance, and servicing. (The press only reports the higher number. If you figured out the lifetime costs for you car or your airplane -- or your house -- you would probably never buy it.) That is for something NEW where initial repair costs are low. If you buy used, those down-the-raod repair costs kick in right away. (Example: My O-2A really cost me 50% over the initial purchase price as I "fixed" the maintenance performed over the years by the previous owner over the first year. Additional surprises came up over the second and third years.) So when you think new or used, think about repair costs, too. I love the 337, but parts are hard to come by (especially for the O-2A).

Turbocharged engines. Great for high density altitude operations. Just like turbocharged automobiles, be careful of the older models and former-owner abuse.

Used twin Piper: Visibility sucks. For the redundancy of the second engine, you lose significant mission capability.

Twin anything costs twice as much. (Not quite, but dang close.)

If you are going places you might get shot at (depending on what kind of patrolling you are doing) the second engine can be very useful -- as can centerline thrust.

Everything is a balance of what you want to accomplish, how you plan to do it, and how much money you have for it. You really haven't provided us with enough real information to offer real advice, but from what I have seen so far, everybody has been doing their best to give you good information to base your decisions on.

[martymayes]

The state of California operated a fleet of Cessna 185's for a number of years for various law enforcement surveillance duties. My understanding is that they did all the right maintenance and had good reliability. I will suggest that the record shows that a well maintained single is as reliable as a twin.

I agree. The majority of surveillance work is conducted in single engine aircraft because that is the most practical option. The 'risk' of S.E. flying whether it be over inhospitable terrain, water, at night or under IFR, are simply part of the job.

[pittsdriver3]

My Dad has his Turbo Aztec for sale. Robertson STOL, long range tanks, camera port in floor and rear window removable in flight. Garmin IFR certified GPS with MX30 display etc. He was in the Orange County Sheriff's Aero Squadron for 46 years and used it a lot for SR and law enforcement missions. Don

[cluttonfred]

Don, please contact me offline with details and photos if you can, I doubt that the time frame would work if your Dad is looking to sell soon, but I would really appreciate learning more about this aircraft as a great example of what I am looking for. Thanks!

[Bill Greenwood]

Your topic title says a "stol" aircraft. Is an Aztec anywhere near stol, and how much does the Robertson kit affect this??

[cluttonfred]

As far as I can tell, with the fat Piper airfoil, a lightly-loaded Apache or Aztec is about as STOL as any generic light twin gets. With the Geronimo mods the Apache is quite impressive. By STOL here I don't mean Fieseler Storch or Helio Courier, I mean able to get in and out of a 1,000 foot dirt strip with clear approaches. Most flying would be from longer runways, but that STOL capability would be handy if for nothing else than as an emergency landing site if needed.