Rogue Major Warbird Gathering Scheduled During Oshkosh

[WLIU]

I don't know if any of the readers here have done a nose count at the warbird area of OSH, but if a few go south, it will NOT be empty. The Topeka show has a limited number of slots. That speaks to their physical capacity and their budget. I suspect that if 10 B-17's show up asking for 1000 gallons of discount gas each, their budget might fail.

The WW II aircraft are not THAT much of an endangered species. And the the demographics are shifting. My generation remembers SPADs (A-1 or AD Skyraider depending on your age) and Phantoms and Hueys. Misty and Raven and Carbine. The WW II aircraft are great but are a less visceral connection to the Vietnam generation. I have a memory of looking up to see a SPAD enter the pattern overhead at 2000' and do a 720 circling approach (two complete orbits descending to avoid ground fire). P-51's are pretty but that is all. And the pilots who did the hard work are not the ones flying them today. I remember being able to meet a guy named Gregory Boyington at OSH. That's one reason I keep going.

But I would like to see Leo Thorsness or John Morrissey standing next to an F-105 on the ramp at OSH. Go look them up.

The EAA convention is a big tent that evolves and can surely handle a smaller "boutique" show running at the same time.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

[Kevin O'Halloran]

If you look at pictures of the very first EAA flyin--there were spam cans and warbirds there--more so than homebuilts.
It all came down to the love of flight and airplanes (all kinds)--so it would be stupid to try and exclude anyone now
Kevin

[Floatsflyer]

I don't know if any of the readers here have done a nose count at the warbird area of OSH, but if a few go south, it will NOT be empty. The Topeka show has a limited number of slots. That speaks to their physical capacity and their budget. I suspect that if 10 B-17's show up asking for 1000 gallons of discount gas each, their budget might fail.

The WW II aircraft are not THAT much of an endangered species. And the the demographics are shifting. My generation remembers SPADs (A-1 or AD Skyraider depending on your age) and Phantoms and Hueys. Misty and Raven and Carbine. The WW II aircraft are great but are a less visceral connection to the Vietnam generation. I have a memory of looking up to see a SPAD enter the pattern overhead at 2000' and do a 720 circling approach (two complete orbits descending to avoid ground fire). P-51's are pretty but that is all. And the pilots who did the hard work are not the ones flying them today. I remember being able to meet a guy named Gregory Boyington at OSH. That's one reason I keep going.

But I would like to see Leo Thorsness or John Morrissey standing next to an F-105 on the ramp at OSH. Go look them up.

The EAA convention is a big tent that evolves and can surely handle a smaller "boutique" show running at the same time.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

The Warbird area at OSH will not be empty but it will be "emptier" and such has been the case year over year since 2008, the beginning of the recession. And I'm not speaking about the multitude of L4 types but rather the Allison and RR engined types. 65 slot aircraft(+others that are sure to attend without benefits) is NOT a "boutique" show by any measure. Of course they have a budget but it must be a calculated open concept one because the website says the VIP benefits(revenue sharing, free stuff and $2.00/gal. gas) accorded to the slotted pilots and passengers is "virtually unlimited". This is an incredible, hard to resist incentive to apply for a slot and attend. If I was an owner/operator of one of these warbird money pits I'd be there in a Hollywood minute.

There is no chance 10 B-17's will be showing up looking for cheap fill-ups. There are aircraft type categories of slots with maximums for each(take a look). Only 1 slot each for a B-17 as well as other 4 engine type bombers.

The organizers make it clear that they're not looking for the most number of warbirds but rather some of the most rare types. They state they want to attract the most talented pilots/crews and provide them with extraordinary support and appreciation that they deserve. It's the most fundamental aspect of human nature--we go where we are loved, appreciated and wanted(and throwing in $$$ incentives doesn't hurt)

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes, did you really mean what you wrote, "P-51s are pretty, but that's about all"

That's just silly. Yes 51 are pretty, so is an Italian Macchi, sp?

But a 51 was a major fighter in a major war, and it was a justified war if any of them were justified.
The 51 was the premier fighter of the last phase of the war, when the Alllies moved from the defensive Battles of Britain and Malta, etc. and when on the offensive with long range bomber missions both in Europe and even more so to Japan.
There are other fighters that may be as good or even better in close, Spitfire, but none in the same class as a 51 for range.
And 51s even fought in Korea, only a few piston fighters did that, Fury, Seafire, Corsair, but not 47s or P-38s.

You mention the Vietnam war as a memory for younger vets and the AD and 105. The war itself was nowhere nearly the equivalent of WW II, and served mainly as a 15 year example of what not to do.
In WW II we fought against a technologyicaly advanced major military and industrial power, Germany, and we won. In Nam we invaded, on bogus Bay of Pigs propaganda, a 3rd world country, at best, and we lost.
In WWII we had the support of most of our population, especially after Hitler invaded France and after Pearl Harbor. We had disenters like Lindberg, but we did not shoot them. The most uncivil thing we did was the internment of Japanese Americans.
During Nam, our domestic scene became a disgrace. We lost pubic support for the war, and it was carried on by Nixon long after he had public support. We had the shooting of unarmed students at Kent State and Jackson State and all the Watergate type attempts to stifle public opinion and free speech.
If you graded wars on perhaps 10 categories, like Did we enter the war for a just reason and on the riight side, and How many men did we lose, and Did we win? ; then Nam would fail on all 3. It might only pass on the effort and courage, by many individual soldiers, and perhaps on developing some new weapons.
We went into WW II for the right reason, were supported by most of the free world and had our reputation enhanced by the war. Not so for Nam, few other countries, even Britain sided with us and we lost prestige in most of the world.

I don't care for the looks of a Skyraider, sort of a big truck., though I understand some of them fly well. And a plane, a weapon can be good and not be sleek, like and A-10.
But surely neither the AD or 105 had as major an impact on that war as 51s had in WW II.

And in civilian use today,there are very few AD s flying, no 105s that I know of while the 51 is one of the most useful civilian flown warbirds. And it sounds a lot better than either an AD or a 105, and smells a lot better than a 105.

One of my best friends, Maj. Warner Giles flew in combat in Nam, in both F-4 and gunships. Great guy, not a great war.

[WLIU]

Well, if you want to hijack this thread, the men and women who flew over SE Asia did the best that they could with the equipment on hand. They did their job without regard to the politics of the time just like all fighter pilots do. Go look up the Red River Fighter Pilots Association and read what some of those folks did. I am privileged to fly with some of them and they are an under appreciated story.

But my larger point is that if we all want to get the attention of the baby boomers, their attendance, support and $$, then you have to move forward in time. Yeager was not the last fighter pilot.

I do not know if there is a population of Vietnam era folks who will come to Airventure if there were more 1960's warbirds on the line. But for the younger audience these days, I will suggest that the 1940's are ancient history, maybe just after the fall of Rome. So in terms of attracting an audience to the big show, its worth a discussion.

As for me personally, everyone's perspective is different. P-51's are nice, but for me a SPAD is a big sturdy tough beautiful machine. For the last 30 years, no country has fielded a competitive air superiority challenge, but I know lots of pilots who spent a lot of flight hours hunting SAMs and trucks and tanks and other ground targets while dodging glowing BB's. And when one of the guys I fly with went down outside Hanoi, seeing a SPAD overhead was a wonderful thing. My step son would tell you that the A-10 that he flew halfway across the globe and into the center of Iraq during the recent unpleasantness, is THE beautiful jet. Most folks don't know that the A-10 is the current successor the the SPAD and uses the same call sign.

And for my generation, I can sort of steal the movie line and say "I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning".

Anyway, time moves on and to keep the big show fresh, we all need to recognize that.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[RV8505]

I think it is a matter of who made who, Without the pilots that flew them in combat, the P-51 is just another airplane. It is nice people can afford warbirds but they don't really garner any respect in comparison to a genuine military pilot who flew combat. Most of the greatest generation is gone or is shortly about to pass but we still have valiant (Korea, Vietnam, Grenada Desert Storm, Cold War) aviators among us and they also have a story to tell. We need to celebrate them and hear what they have to say. Anyway, most of the warbirds out there flying are mostly shadows of their former selves. They are stripped of military hardware and were never painted that nice in combat zones. They were just tools of war to be used, abused, and thrown away.

[WLIU]

F-105 restoration news..... http://collingsfoundation.org/enews/...r_105.2010.htm

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes, no one doubts the amount of effort that many U S soldiers and airmen made in the Vietnam war, but if wars were judged by effort alone, then how about the effort made by many German pilots? All the top aces were German with 10 times as many kills as Yeager, etc. and none of their efforts made Hitler or the Nazis in the right.

How would you score the efforts of the VC or NVA who, mostly by sheer determination finally defeated and expelled the strongest military nation in the world?

[Floatsflyer]

And for my generation, I can sort of steal the movie line and say "I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning".

One of the best iconic movie lines of all time is actually, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells like victory." From Apocalypse Now.

And further more, if some of you guys want to have a pissing match over which era warbird is better(bigger?), or which war was more justified or which era combat pilot should be more valued or revered today then start a new thread!!

IMO, the implications of the competing scheduled Topeka show are important enough to have an impact(negative? positive?) on the presentation of AV as well as the expectations of attendees this year. It deserves our attention to discuss without going off on questionable tangents.

[RV8505]

One of the best iconic movie lines of all time is actually, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells like victory." From Apocalypse Now.

And further more, if some of you guys want to have a pissing match over which era warbird is better(bigger?), or which war was more justified or which era combat pilot should be more valued or revered today then start a new thread!!

IMO, the implications of the competing scheduled Topeka show are important enough to have an impact(negative? positive?) on the presentation of AV as well as the expectations of attendees this year. It deserves our attention to discuss without going off on tangents.

I wouldn't worry about it. If they don't collect enough money at the gate, it has all the makings of a spectacular train wreck. They have to fuel all of those planes! I'm glad it's not my problem. Look at the planes they have signed up, Nothing really great! Nor do they seem to have any real sponsors. Not that I wish them ill but I don't think they are going to get the attendance they need. Lots of things happen at Airventure on Thursday, Friday and Saturday and who can pass up the night Airshow! Also the Warbird banquet is on Saturday. I'll probably stay up again late on Saturday for the night airshow, wake up late and see a few friends and fly out before the Sunday airshow starts. I'm pretty airshowed out at the end of Oshkosh. I'll go by Topeka around 6:00 or 7:00 P.M. Sunday night on the way home. It probably wouldn't be a bad time to stop by there as the crowds will be gone. Maybe we could get some flat beer, stale sandwiches and free camping with some of the remaining pilots on the airfield. Maybe we could talk to the local EAA chapter in to having a late Sunday night pancake breakfast.