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Thread: Really Dumb FAA Move

  1. #31
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Bonney Lake, WA
    Other terms that all PICs shouldn't be afraid to use:

    Ryan Winslow
    EAA 525529
    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

  2. #32
    kscessnadriver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Overland Park, KS
    Wow, 4 pages, simply because someone got bent out of shape because he didn't like what the tower asked him. Shocking. If a pilot is so thin skinned, that a simple question asking if they need a runup or not is offensive, time to turn the ticket it.

    Have you ever considered they are going to plan how to get other planes out if you do your runup at the end of the runway? Or maybe there is a dedicated runup area they are going to send you to. Perhaps its time to stick to non-towered fields for you, if this is such a big deal. Surely you couldn't handle operating at a Class B airport.
    ATP MEL, Commercial Lighter Than Air-Airship, SEL, CFI/CFII
    Private SES

  3. #33

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    New Hampshire
    May I suggest that if 4 pages is 3.9 too many, lets refrain from going for a 5th page? It looks like all of the points have been covered.

    Fly safe,


  4. #34

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    It is not really the subject of my topic, which was the new verbage of ground controllers, but since a few pilots brought up the subject of IFR approaches into Aspen, here are the facts,
    So for "Waco 8 and others:

    This is right off the FAA approach charts that I have in front of me.
    All 3 charts say, "Procedure not authorized at night". That is for the Loc/Dme , the Vor/Dme and the Rnav/GPS.
    Therefore for MOST private general aviation, no IFR approach is legal at night.
    The airlines and local charter companies and a few others can get special FAA authoriation to fly the IFR approach at night, but must meet some stiff criteria.
    Also all minimums are listed as circleing minimums.
    The Loc is 2100 AGL and 3 miles vis, and the other 2 are 2400' and 1 and 3/4 miles.
    Thus, from right off the charts, no legal approach at night, and all are listed as circling unlike what some have said.
    I think if you broke out to VMC early enough you do not have to circle and may land straight in to Rwy 15, and most may do so.

    The airlines have legal authority to fly the approach at night.
    Of course insurance regs and company policy may add restrictions to these for some pilots, but this is the official FAA language.

    I think the night prohibition was put in after the charter jet accident a few years back.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 01-31-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  5. #35

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Circle Pines MN
    To Bill and everyone else, here's a link to the AOPA write up on the Gulfstream accident at Aspen. If you go down to the "airport and approach" part, it describes why there are no straight in landing minimums.
    In this case it's because of the high desent graident required. I know on a normal LOC or VOR approach that is not aligned to the runway by I think 10 or 15 degrees, (I forget the actual number) only circling minumums are published. In this case at Aspen, they do not expect you to circle to land on 33, they expect you to land on 15.
    I hope this is informative

  6. #36

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Jim , thanks for the reprint of the accident report. It is chilling and every pilot should read it.
    As much as a study in flying and how not to do it ; it is even more a study in the worst side of human nature. The man booking the charter was about as stupid and overbearing as he could have been , and even though the pilots surely knew better they could not bring themselves to say no. I am sure it is very hard in the charter business to say no to a client and have him take his American Express card and the $30,000 fee to a competitor.

    My Dad was not a pilot, my Brother was, but Dad was Pres of a corporation. They had a twin like a King Air, and a company pilot, Al Brown. The pilot had only one duty, and that was to fly safely and you could not have paid my Dad any amount to try to talk the pilot into doing something that he thought was dangerous.

    I was out to dinner that night in town and came out of the restaurant about 7 pm or just after, about the time of the crash. I recall for sure that it was snowing and most of all blowing gusty winds so at that time it was hard to even see to drive.
    A friend was in a jet on the approach, I think near the time of the crash and has decent visibilty, but it was a changeable thing.

    One of the very sad things was that they could have landed in Rifle, only 40 air miles away, had a limo waiting for them and been safe in Aspen an hour and a half later, and probably been drinking champagne in the limo on the short drive over. They had to fly past Rifle to get to Aspen and it is a bigger valley and almost always easier to land there.
    One of our friends was driving in that night and was first on the crash scene and tried to help the passengers, but there were just pieces and nothing to be done.

    It was nice and clear the next morning and I flew my biennial flight review since I had already scheduled it, and we flew right over the wreckage. The were perhaps less than 1/4 mile from making it to the runway.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 01-31-2013 at 05:57 PM.

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