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Thread: Really Dumb FAA Move

  1. #21
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    Sorry. "You're misleading" or "You're conspiracy theorizing" any better?
    Ryan Winslow
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  2. #22
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    How about you drop the "you're" - criticize the idea/opinion, not the person,

    Hal Bryan
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  3. #23
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Bryan View Post
    How about you drop the "you're" - criticize the idea/opinion, not the person,
    Hey at least I'm getting the "You're/Your" part correct. How about I say "The notion that the tower is suggesting that someone skips a runup is absolutely idiotic", there's no "You're" in that.
    Ryan Winslow
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    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

  4. #24
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    I think you've made you're point. How about you just drop it instead?

    Hal Bryan
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Champdriver, you hit on another annoying thing ATC often does and that of talking to you and even giving directions while you are still in the landing roll.

    I usually just ignore them myself. They also love to give you takeoff directions and clearance freqencies whild you are taxiing on the times when you are using departure control. I usually point out to them than I don't have a secretary to record all that while I am taxiing.

    I once took an IRF refresher from a Chicago company and the CFI was also a controller. He said 92% of controllers are not pilots and really have little clue on flying an airplane.

    Controllers at their best are like the ones at Oshkosh, at their worst it seems like they think they are getting paid by the word.

    By the way, I don't think that in VMC, going right downwind and right base to land on rwy 33 is considered a circling approach, it is just a pattern, just like some jets who come from the south and land on 15.
    The airlines do it often, whenever the tailwind on 15 gets up. They don't land with a 15 knot tailwind. Maybe the corporate pilots don't consider the tailwind.

    I think a circling approach would be to fly the LDA to rwy 15, then continue and turn left downwind and circle back to land on 15. I have ridden on United one night when they did this and they were barely vmc below the clouds on downwind, but made the landing.
    Bill the worst one I ever heard was when I was behind a Baron pilot and they gave him a departure code change right in the middle of his take off roll. I thought that was extremely poor timing and I was really tempted to tell them that. That's one of the worst times to distract a pilot with a trivial task. Myself, I would have completely ignored them and worried about it after I had the plane cleaned up and at a safe altitude.
    Granted, they're just a medium sized airport near a major metro area and approach asked them to relay the new code to the pilot before he contacted departure.
    We as pilots have to realize that they're not pilots and can only help us so much, we have to look out for ourselves if we want to live long.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    The only reason for the controller to ask is to not so subtley suggest that I skip this so as to figuartively move us to the back of the bus.
    Hey Bill,

    You really need to take a moment and realize the tremendous responsibility you have acting as Pilot in Command. And, you also have to realize that the tower is not out there to serve you...it is to keep two planes from hitting each other on the runway. If you honestly have a problem with the inquiry, I'd ask that you take a moment to understand what ATC is trying to do (especially with a special case like KASE) and remember you can always say no. Just like when you said no to drugs (assuming you did), you might not look cool in front of the "cool kids", but you would have made the right decision.

  7. #27

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    I think a circling approach would be to fly the LDA to rwy 15, then continue and turn left downwind and circle back to land on 15. I have ridden on United one night when they did this and they were barely vmc below the clouds on downwind, but made the landing.

    I have been in and out of Aspen and if you look at the approach charts a circling approach, on any approach, is NOT approved at night. As for ATC.....you are PIC. Just say no. It's that simple.

  8. #28

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    Waco, the circle to land approach that I rode through on United was a few years back, perhaps 6 years or so ago. It was certainly legal then. It may be that United had FAA approval to fly it and non airlines planes had different rules. I know some years longer ago, Aspen Airways had their own private approach beam of some type, back when they had the Convair 580s (great planes) or after that the Bac 146.
    It may also be that when United took over, they were using the same approach and same rules as everyone else, BUT that was before the fatal charter jet accident, which was, I think 5 to 10 years ago. Night approches were legal then, and the accident happened around 7 pm in IMC with blowing snow. One result of this accident was they made night approaches (IFR) illegal. You can still land at night if it is VMC until 11 pm.

    Whatever the reason and whenever it was, I know we came in at night, in IMC on United, (pretty sure it was a CRJ) and broke out but did not land straigth in. We went left downwind just under the clouds and back to a safe landing on 15. I was on the left side of the plane so could see the runway as we went around,but it was pretty dark. After the landing as I walked past the cockpit door I looked at the pilot and he looked very glad to be down.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 01-29-2013 at 08:20 PM.

  9. #29

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    Night approaches are approved, but you are not allowed to circle at night. I believe that I remember the Gulfsteam II crash happened about 7:30pm, after curfew at he time. I know that some airlines have their own procedures but they usually pertain to SID's (standard instrument departures) when the airplane that the airlines use for that route segment can't meet the climb gradient after loosing one or more engines. I do not believe that applies to approaches, so maybe someone else can clarify that.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    ...pilots of piston airplanes have been doing a pre take off check list for as long as I can remember, certainly since I was taught at National Air College in 1979...This has been the correct procedure for the 34years that I have been a pilot and has been verified when I flew with Lew Monger who was a senior FAA official at Denver Stapleton as well as numerous other instructors and check pilots, including a man who was twice T-Birds leader, an Israeli ace, two senior check pilots for United, a RCAF F-18 instructor, and instructors at Flightsafety, as well as a Navy Top Gun instructor and CFIs from both Warbird Adventures and Stallion 51 in Florida,and a 5 time winner of the Unlimited Gold at Reno,and 2 CAF check pilots, and 2 combat vets of air war in Vietnam ( F-4 & A-6),and a Battle of Britain pilot who was Canada all time highest hours instructor...I also rode with Steve Hinton once and guess what, he did the run up the same way. A couple of these guys were even big time corporate jet pilots,as well as airline pilots. I almost forgot to mention another EAA CFI, Duane Cole, who you may not have heard of as he wasn't a jet pilot and not even much of a talker,but he has a place in the EAA museum...the controller could make a pretty reasonable assumption that I was going to do a check list and run up before take off...The only reason for the controller to ask is to not so subtley suggest that I skip this so as to figuartively move us to the back of the bus.
    i have thunked and thunked on this and still can't figger out how you expect ATC could read your logbook or your resume or your who-ya-rode-with from the tower cab. but what difference does it really make? i still think their runup question is because so many OTHER people, certainly not you'n'me o horrors no, DON'T do a runup. if that's your real beef, then jump on them - not ATC. ATC just provides separation service. to do it, they gotta know yer plans. without info, ATC doesn't know how to anticipate which ones will and which ones won't so they politely ask. even with the answer, ATC is still not sure how long it will take (student pilot? experienced pro?). giv'm a break, just politely answer the question. a question which has nothing to do with downwind approaches or circle-to-land-at-night or whatever else might make a real instructive new thread. if you have time, y'might let 'em know if it's gonna be a short runup or if you have to program nav, teach a student, or whatever. separation services. not mind-readers. climb on course and squawk VFR.
    Last edited by Mike M; 01-30-2013 at 07:19 AM.

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