Do you have a Transponder Scottie.......

[WLIU]

A couple of points.

First, my avionics tech makes house calls. He actually services customers at a number of airports. So if you ask around, you might find a tech who operates in the same way near you. No need to fly far away for biennial transponder checks. And they cost about $125 for a VFR check here.

Second, the transponder makes you visible to ATC. The point about all those other aircraft is that THEY are headed into the Class C and so they are getting advisories around you. That protects you. I will note that ATC is obligated to point you out to them. Especially to TCAS equipped aircraft. If TCAS goes off in an airline cockpit and the traffic that the TCAS is alerting about has not been previously been pointed out by ATC, its a controller error and involves paperwork and unhappiness at the ATC facility. So if you make yourself radar visible, folks, especially the big ones, will get advisories about you and vectors away. This is all to your advantage even if you never talk to ATC on the radio yourself.

The only issue in a very small aircraft is supplying power to the transponder. If you can do that, and you have one to install, it is probably to your advantage to do so for the reasons above.

I will also note that since most of the traffic that goes into Class C is transponder equipped, the new gizmos like the Zaon seem to help show traffic around, especially on hazy days and in directions that you don't look a lot, like 6 O'Clock.

On the other hand, there are warbird surplus dealers out there that are happy to sell you a rear view mirror built for a WW II fighter or newer jet. They work just as well for you and maybe add some cool factor to your cockpit. And a long long time ago, far far away, a bad friend came screaming in on my six expecting to give me a fright. When I pulled vertical and rolled into him he was really really shocked. His post flight comment was "NO ONE watches their six....".

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

Wes once again I can not thank you enough for your advice. I want ATC to see me, like you said even if I do not talk to them.

When people say stay alert and watch for traffic, I can only do so much. Short of flying S patterns everywhere every few mins I have no idea how to watch my six. My plane is built like a razzer back, if I could turn my head around all I am seeing is the "turtle deck", I think thats what its called, of the fuselage.

I did pick me up a traffic alert system along with this transponder and encoder. As for power, I do have an on board battery but no generator or charging system. My little 1/2 vw has a starter but no charging system.
Couple options here.
1. genn-i-pod, charging problem solved.
2. Lipo Battery of around 10,000 Mil amp 14.5 Volt
Negitive on the Genn-i-pod, weight, adding up all the equipment this would be the heaviest way to go.
Lipo is the least heavy way to go. Make it where I remove this lipo after every flight.

I have never been in nor seen the inside of a controll tower. I have no idea what they see or whom they see. I know I want them to see me. If I was still located about 15 miles from here it would not be as much of a problem. Stay under 1400 or around 1000' and you are good to go. Here on the edge of class c airspace, right on the edge its a bigger problem. Or could be.

Now if I use a transponder, I know it takes alot to get setup, but I believe it will be worth it, if it can be done. Do I need to talk to ATC to use this transponder or does one just turn it on. Let it warm up or wake up then go fly?


H.A.S.
P.S. To reduce even more weight I am removing all old style steam gauges and installing an EIS system from Grands rapid tech. This will also be powered by the Lipo. For redundent power I could hook two of these lipos to this system.

[WLIU]

You do not have to talk to ATC at all. Turn on the transponder, set it to code 1200. Fly.

The sailplane guys run off batteries. They use their transponders to soar very high. I have friends who ride mountain lift to 20,000'. You have to manage your battery power. A volt meter is probably needed so that you turn off the transponder when the battery gets tired.

The not having ever visited a tower or other ATC facility is a curable condition. Approach control facilities run tours for groups of pilots and there is no reason that you can't sign up. If you call your local FAA Flight Standards District Office, and ask about safety programs, they will be thrilled to talk to you and start filling your e-mail in box with invitations to programs.

As for rear view mirrors, if you have overhead glass, several famous fighters had external overhead mirrors. Look up photos of early Spitfires for instance.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

Wes: Do I need the encoder? or are they a par, meaning you must use one if you use the other?

Next question, does anyone know someone whom can get this unit up and running?

I was going to mount this myself then have someone else calabrate this unit.

Tomorrow I will be contacting my local FSDO and setting up this meeting.

I will check out some rear view mirrors that would be cool to have one from an old fighter.

Thanks again for this advice.

H.A.S.

[WLIU]

I will suggest that you want the encoder if it is not too much hassle. It helps out the folks looking for you as traffic.

To getting it up and running you will want the installation drawing for the transponder and encoder. If the drawing for your unit is not on the internet somewhere, my experience is that the avionics folks are happy to give you a copy if you ask. The wiring is not that hard. You will be best served by talking to your friendly traveling radio tech before you power it up for the first time as to how they want to check it. You might set up the wiring of the mounting tray(s) on your bench, check the correct wiring, give your tech a chance to look your work over, and then bolt it into the airplane and have the VFR check done. It is not rocket science.

If you call the FSDO, ask for the FAA Aviation Safety Inspector who leads the local FAAST Team (FAA Safety Team). In fact, looking at the internet, you can go to the web site http://www.faasafety.gov/ and sign up for notifications of safety seminars that will likely include meeting the ATC folks that can answer your questions. Looking at the web site, a telephone call to the FSDO may not be needed at all.

There is a lot of info out there. The challenge is finding where to start and who to talk to. Better to have too much info than not enough. You can pick and choose to ignore the info that does not apply to you. And you may not always enjoy working with our FAA folks, but having info you know what to expect and how to achieve an relationship that benefits you the most. (We're not happy until you're not happy...).

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

Wes again you come through:
The man whom sent me all this equipment sent me the wiring harness that all this hooks to. He had it mounted in his airplane and upgraded his panel. He gave me everything to make it a plug and play unit. He said all I need to do is hook up grounds and power supply.

Thanks again Wes.

H.A.S.
N8053H

[martymayes]

Second, the transponder makes you visible to ATC. The point about all those other aircraft is that THEY are headed into the Class C and so they are getting advisories around you. That protects you. I will note that ATC is obligated to point you out to them. Especially to TCAS equipped aircraft. If TCAS goes off in an airline cockpit and the traffic that the TCAS is alerting about has not been previously been pointed out by ATC, its a controller error and involves paperwork and unhappiness at the ATC facility. So if you make yourself radar visible, folks, especially the big ones, will get advisories about you and vectors away. This is all to your advantage even if you never talk to ATC on the radio yourself.

Well, lets review the AIM and see what we can come up with: Para 5-5-8 says: "When meteorological conditions permit, regardless of type of flight plan or whether or not under control of a radar facility, the pilot is responsible to see and avoid other traffic, terrain, or obstacles."

Section b) says a controller "Provides radar traffic information to radar identified aircraft operating outside positive control airspace on a workload permitting basis" The controller is only 'obligated' to provide traffic information in positive controlled airspace.

Continuing on to 5-5-10, the pilot "Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons."

The pilot of a TCAS equipped aircraft is authorized to deviate from an ATC clearance as necessary to follow the commands of a TCAS RA. I am not aware of any paperwork on ATC's part but I can find out in a few minutes. FWIW, most TCAS RA's I have encountered occurred while under ATC control.

Now for reality: The most likey type traffic H.A.S. will encounter is not traffic flying to/from the primary class C airport. It will be pilots trying to skirt the Class C without a transponder, or those not comfortable talking to ATC. In the latter, you'll have two aircraft on a 1200 code with the controller unable to do anything because neither have been radar identified.

H.A.S. - You might want to review what a TIS system can and can't do. I don't think it will provide any value to your type flying.

Essentially, you have a ~320# airplane which willl incur a substantial wt. penalty once all this gear and power source (batteries) are installed. Performance suffers, the higher gross wt means structural safety margins are compromised and there is very little if any collision avoidance benefit.

But, it is a free country.

[1600vw]

Well, lets review the AIM and see what we can come up with: Para 5-5-8 says: "When meteorological conditions permit, regardless of type of flight plan or whether or not under control of a radar facility, the pilot is responsible to see and avoid other traffic, terrain, or obstacles."

Section b) says a controller "Provides radar traffic information to radar identified aircraft operating outside positive control airspace on a workload permitting basis" The controller is only 'obligated' to provide traffic information in positive controlled airspace.

Continuing on to 5-5-10, the pilot "Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons."

The pilot of a TCAS equipped aircraft is authorized to deviate from an ATC clearance as necessary to follow the commands of a TCAS RA. I am not aware of any paperwork on ATC's part but I can find out in a few minutes. FWIW, most TCAS RA's I have encountered occurred while under ATC control.

Now for reality: The most likey type traffic H.A.S. will encounter is not traffic flying to/from the primary class C airport. It will be pilots trying to skirt the Class C without a transponder, or those not comfortable talking to ATC. In the latter, you'll have two aircraft on a 1200 code with the controller unable to do anything because neither have been radar identified.

H.A.S. - You might want to review what a TIS system can and can't do. I don't think it will provide any value to your type flying.

Essentially, you have a ~320# airplane which willl incur a substantial wt. penalty once all this gear and power source (batteries) are installed. Performance suffers, the higher gross wt means structural safety margins are compromised and there is very little if any collision avoidance benefit.

But, it is a free country.

Martymayes some very good info. As for wieght issue's. I am removing all gauges in favor of an EIS. from Grands Rapids Tech. If you have not seen one of these they weigh in at maybe 1 lbs with wiring and sensors. I already do have a battery but if I use lipo's by the time its said and done I will have lost some weight and not added. Everything I do is either in the name of saftey or wieght.

Now I am not doing these mods for me. I am trying to be respectfull of others whom I must share this airspace with. But with how you explained this I also now know there are others whom fly more GA style airplanes "150's, 172" whom also fly like me with no radio contact with ATC.

Here is what I have learned so far.
The best way to avoid traffic is with, eye's outside of cockpit, like we are taught by our CFI. But you can not see everything and niether can the other pilot's, everyone has blind spots.
The number one or fist piece of equipment is a radio.
If I every plan a long X-Country this transponder equipment might be of use, local flying not so much.
You do not have to have a transponder to fly within class c airspace, you must talk with ATC first and get aproval.
Using a transponder does not mean you must talk with ATC.
Setting up or having your transponder certified is not as big an issiue as some think, should not cost hundreds to have done.

Thanks for all the imput on this subject, maybe someone else with get something from it. Since I received this equipment for a really good deal I might just outfit my airplane with this equipment. The next owner might really like it setup this way.

H.A.S.

[Wilfred]

It seems to me that no transponder is required for entry into class d airspace...only two way communications, unless the airport is specifically listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of FAR 91.215. If I am incorrect please point me to the FAR that straightens me out. Thanks

[martymayes]

Lets go a few steps further....

Setting up or having your transponder certified is not as big an issiue as some think, should not cost hundreds to have done.

Remember your transponder requires an antenna. For your stick and fabric airplane, the antenna will likely require a ground plane. Installing the antenna might require more effort than you are allowing for. Second, once installed, the transponder and encoder have to comply with regulatory performance requirements. If it doesn't, there might be some additional expense to get things up to spec. It's like taking a plane in for an annual. The inspection itself is not much $$$ but if the inspector finds any discrepancies, it gets more expensive. But we'll say your optimism pays off and there are no snags getting things installed, once up operating routine checks should not be an issue. Add $75/yr to your operating costs and you're covered.

If I had intentions of upgrading to a more capable aircraft one day, I'd use the extra cash to save for that. Avionics upgrades rarely return more than 1/3 on investment. IOW's $1000 of avionics upgrades adds about $300 to the value of the aircraft. Install if for your own entertainment cause you won't get your money back.