ethanol-free gas

[Dana]

Aside from ethanol's water absorption issue, the big problem is that gasoline and ethanol are very different. Gasoline is OK with some materials, and ethanol is good with others... but few non metallic materials are good with both ethanol and gasoline. Buna N rubber is good with gasoline, not so good with ethanol, while silicone is good with ethanol but bad for gasoline. Teflon is good for nearly anything, but it's expensive and not very strong or flexible by itself. Not just rubber hoses, too, but sealers like gasket shellac and pipe joint compound can be dissolved by ethanol... and the shellac on the fuel gauge cork of many older planes.

The ONLY people benefiting from ethanol contaminated fuels are corn farmers... and, of course, congresscritters in corn growing states.

[Mike M]

I read it on the Vans Air Force forums a while back. You can probably search on ethanol there...

Thanks, Ron. Took that advice. Did that. Lots of opinion. Couldn't open the one link I found to some European research report. So I duck duck went for ethanol aluminum incompatibility. Found lots of hard data, some too hard for me. Also a simple chart from folks promoting how great ethanol is as a vehicle fuel. http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol...patibility.pdf

So. Incompatible with aluminum, like my fuel tank and lines. And brass, like my fuel float. But ok with bronze, so is that float really brass or is it bronze? Oh, not with lead solder, like holds the float together? Never mind. OK with buna-n, like my o-rings. And neoprene, like some gaskets and fuel hose but not all, and oh heck forget it.

[Byron J. Covey]

The ONLY people benefiting from ethanol contaminated fuels are corn farmers... and, of course, congresscritters in corn growing states.

It goes far beyond the congressmen from the corn belt: it encompasses (infects) almost the entire congress. The concept of "I'll support your boondoggle if you support mine" is alive and well.

"Don't criticize out politicians. They are the were best that money can buy."


BJC

[Sam Buchanan]

The best info I've seen on the perils of EtOH in airplane engines is the guys who are burning it in the RVs. The injected engines aren't too bad once you're careful with the fuel lines etc...
However, they've had real serious reliability issues with EtOH and carbs.

I must have missed that discussion even though I've been on VAF since it went live. The few instances I recall where RVers have admitted using E-10 have described how the engines seem to be running fine on the contaminated gas when proper storage is observed. The biggest concern with E-10 is the fuel pump diaphragm and tank sump o-rings. Ancedotal info sez the diaphragm in the Tempest pump is the same as the one in automotive pumps, but no manufacturer has stuck out their neck and officially made that statement. The o-rings are easily replaced with seals that are E-10 tolerant.

[nrpetersen]

Engines can certainly all operate with E10. But maybe the real issue is that E10 cannot be made compatible with float type carburetors because they let the fuel be exposed to air. Fuel injection systems never expose the fuel to air & E10 works in the automotive market because all cars have gone to fuel injection simply to meet emission standards. Cars of course are operated so much more frequently that fuel tank and line corrosion issues and other phase separation issues tend to be minimized.

I think when it comes to small carburated aircraft engines, we won't ever be able to safely consider the use of E10 for any substantial period of time, even if the fuel system seal etc compatibilities are resolved. In addition, the lower heat value of E10 reduces the max power output which in itself becomes an aircraft certification issue.

[FlyingRon]

This was an article specifically on the guys runinng the 100% ethanol demo. It may have been just linked to on the VAF forum but I'm pretty sure that's where I came across it.

[Sam Buchanan]

Engines can certainly all operate with E10. But maybe the real issue is that E10 cannot be made compatible with float type carburetors because they let the fuel be exposed to air. Fuel injection systems never expose the fuel to air & E10 works in the automotive market because all cars have gone to fuel injection simply to meet emission standards. Cars of course are operated so much more frequently that fuel tank and line corrosion issues and other phase separation issues tend to be minimized.

I think when it comes to small carburated aircraft engines, we won't ever be able to safely consider the use of E10 for any substantial period of time, even if the fuel system seal etc compatibilities are resolved. In addition, the lower heat value of E10 reduces the max power output which in itself becomes an aircraft certification issue.

E-10 worked perfectly in my Chevy V6-powered kit-car with a Holley 4-barrel carb (two floats). It also works great in my VW Beetle engine that has two Weber carbs. It also ran fine in my 1/2 VW aircraft engine that had a Zenith carb. And.....there are RVers who have used E-10 in carbed engines with no service problems (O-320). But maybe there are instances where E-10 causes issues with carbed engines.

Make no mistake, I don't like the stuff and am fortunate non-contaminated gas is available in my area.

[1600vw]

If you do not believe ethanol has no effect on anything, try this little test. Take some fuel any fuel that has ethanol in it. Get yourself some rubber fuel line from any auto store. Take this fuel line and stick it in this ethanol fuel. Leave it set for about 3-4 weeks. Come back and take out the rubber line. No guessing or arguing about what this fuel does, you will see what it does for yourself.

Post back here with the results, see you in a month.

Tony

[Sam Buchanan]

If you do not believe ethanol has no effect on anything, try this little test. Take some fuel any fuel that has ethanol in it. Get yourself some rubber fuel line from any auto store. Take this fuel line and stick it in this ethanol fuel. Leave it set for about 3-4 weeks. Come back and take out the rubber line. No guessing or arguing about what this fuel does, you will see what it does for yourself.

Post back here with the results, see you in a month.

Tony

Tony, I don't think anyone in the thread has stated ethanol has no effect on anything. There are definitely materials that don't survive very long in ethanol. The small engine guys (lawn mowers, outboard boat engines, etc) have been having fits replacing small fuel lines ever since ethanol appeared in gasoline.

But ethanol-tolerant materials are available and in common usage, we just have to identify vulnerable components in our fuel system and replace them with parts that can stand up to ethanol for the long term. Even though the two Holley carbed vehicles I own (open fuel systems, no emission controls) haven't had any carb, fuel pump, or line problems in the ten years they have been on contaminated gas, the fuel cap gasket on the car quickly swelled up when exposed to the stuff and had to be replaced with viton. But the neoprene (rubber) fuel lines are fine after being in service for ten years.

I would love to see E-10 go away but that is unlikely given our political environment. So we have to adapt and fortunately it is possible in most cases if we continue careful maintenance practices.

[1600vw]

Tony, I don't think anyone in the thread has stated ethanol has no effect on anything. There are definitely materials that don't survive very long in ethanol. The small engine guys (lawn mowers, outboard boat engines, etc) have been having fits replacing small fuel lines ever since ethanol appeared in gasoline.

But ethanol-tolerant materials are available and in common usage, we just have to identify vulnerable components in our fuel system and replace them with parts that can stand up to ethanol for the long term. Even though the two Holley carbed vehicles I own (open fuel systems, no emission controls) haven't had any carb, fuel pump, or line problems in the ten years they have been on contaminated gas, the fuel cap gasket on the car quickly swelled up when exposed to the stuff and had to be replaced with viton. But the neoprene (rubber) fuel lines are fine after being in service for ten years.

I would love to see E-10 go away but that is unlikely given our political environment. So we have to adapt and fortunately it is possible in most cases if we continue careful maintenance practices.

Sam,there in lies the problem. You see we have those on forums such as this that use those small engine you refer to in other things besides a lawn mower. Then the read posts such as this then believe they can use this fuel without any issues. My self I have never seen anyone using a Holley in anything they fly as an EAB. I see more of the " little " engines you speak of.

But I do agree all this crap could go away and not bother me. Never going to happen.