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Thread: ethanol-free gas

  1. #21

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    Did anybody look at the simple single page gasohol compatability list published by folks that make a living in this area? http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol...patibility.pdf

  2. #22

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    That list is a gross simplification. It assumes only ethanol and presumably a hydrocarbon, but not the simultaneous presence of water. Compatibility with water has to be included in any system involving longer term storage or even modestly contaminated fuel.

    I don't even see epoxy resins on the list.
    Last edited by nrpetersen; 12-26-2014 at 07:20 AM.

  3. #23
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Yep, those of us who have boats and even some yard equipment know the perils of ethanol+moisture in the fuel tanks and carburators. I've changed more carbs on my wife's garden equipment until I started searching out E-free gas for the small cans used to operate these things.

  4. #24
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    I used to work for the manufacturer of fuel pumps. We had a plant in Brasil; when they moved to gasohol, we basically had to rebuild the entire unit's hydraulics. Cast AL housing would start being eaten away, the metering Pistons started failing, etc. I have started doing the "pure gas" thing, esp.on my Triumphs, have replaced carb parts due to leaks, etc caused by failing seals, hoses, etc. would hate to have a similar problem at altitude or takeoff. The bird that I use for my dual only gets non-alcohol fuel. Quite a few places carry it in our area. Bit more expensive, but my posterior is on the line.

    derswde

  5. #25
    crusty old aviator's Avatar
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    Okay, here's the straight dope on ethanol fuels: it's not corn farmers, it's the oil industry that duped Congress into going along with their plan. This goes back to Cheney's energy plan. Back then, there was a negative fuel energy balance, meaning it required more energy to make ethanol than the ethanol produced, and what made up the difference? Petroleum! However, this plan backfired with more efficient farming practices, so now the balance is positive, but not by much: 1.3 (compare that to producing ethanol from sugar cane: 8). So, for every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, the equivalent energy of 1 gallon is burned in that production process. Other studies drop it to 1.24, and some contend it's still negative. Peter Welch, Vermont's man in the House of Representatives, is an outspoken opponent of ethanol in gas, as he has had to rebuild many carbs, etc. on his chainsaws and other equipment, as have his constituents. The boat and classic car/motorcycle folks have been screaming about getting rid of ethanol, too. Since the oil industry is still selling more diesel to the corn farmers, they're not going to let that cash cow go anytime soon.

    Maybe if we can vote Bernie into the White House this November, he can get rid of E10 with an executive order...I don't see it happening with any of the other candidates. Vote your fuel system!
    Last edited by crusty old aviator; 03-09-2016 at 10:18 AM.

  6. #26
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    That doesn't really ring true. It is the corn producing state politicians that have been the big push behind the renewable fuel mandates whereas those from oil states like Texas have been consistently against it.

    Yes, Ethanol currently makes little sense. As pointed out, it's not produced in a "renewable" fashion now and it severely impacts other users of corn (like food predominently).

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrpetersen View Post
    That list is a gross simplification. It assumes only ethanol and presumably a hydrocarbon, but not the simultaneous presence of water. Compatibility with water has to be included in any system involving longer term storage or even modestly contaminated fuel.

    I don't even see epoxy resins on the list.
    Of course it's an oversimplification. But it's still credible because it's provided by the people who make a living from the product. Epoxy resins is a BIG range of products, but people make a living with them, too:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ch...oxy-d_786.html
    https://www.epoxy.com/Epoxy_Chemical...ant_Chart.aspx
    http://www.masterbond.com/properties...s-and-coatings
    http://www.beaconadhesives.com/epxchmresis.html

    It ain't rocket surgery or hangar tales. Ask the people who KNOW before putting money and flesh on the line.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Of course it's an oversimplification. But it's still credible because it's provided by the people who make a living from the product. Epoxy resins is a BIG range of products, but people make a living with them, too:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ch...oxy-d_786.html
    https://www.epoxy.com/Epoxy_Chemical...ant_Chart.aspx
    http://www.masterbond.com/properties...s-and-coatings
    http://www.beaconadhesives.com/epxchmresis.html

    It ain't rocket surgery or hangar tales. Ask the people who KNOW before putting money and flesh on the line.
    . Agree - except it is not credible from E10 suppliers until unavoidable water is included in the E10 mixture. The boat people probably have the most relevant experience.

  9. #29

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    "Agree - except it is not credible from E10 suppliers until unavoidable water is included in the E10 mixture."

    Fine. The topic was how to find alcohol-free gasoline. Thank you, "lost in time" and Chris Thomson.

    Then it became the effects of ethanol on aircraft, with a lot of anecdotal experiences. So I found industry-standard info about ethanol compatibility with materials used in various systems on various aircraft. Not just E10, ethanol, which was the original question.

    But that wasn't good enough. The lack of info about epoxies was raised. Since my wife used to sell epoxy tanks for industrial chemicals, I knew that wasn't necessarily a problem, and found y'all info on that. Now you want info on water in gas? We already know what materials ethanol doesn't play well with. Adding w
    ater isn't going to make the ethanol inert and stop corrosion unless there is some chemical magic nobody has yet discovered.

    Don't put water in your aircraft fuel tank. Your mileage may vary.

    You're welcome.

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