How many hours before you fly passengers?

[Auburntsts]

Geez, based on that logic why don't we just ban flying -- that's the safest move of all. No flights, no crashes.

So it's OK if a pilot just kills himself and no others? Pax limits don't do anything to make a pilot safer. They simply reduce the risk everyone except the pilot. I think our energy would be better spent ensuring pilots made good, safe decisions. IOW lets stop the accident chain prior to the crash.

[Kyle Boatright]

Once you get your license is a fine time to take friends and family on joy rides. I suggest doing that in the daytime and in good weather (visibility, wind, etc.), and it is probably best to stay relatively close to home, so you don't have to worry about weather changing before you return home. My first flight with a passenger was at 45 or so hours with my Dad. We went up on the Saturday after I got my license, and did an aerial tour of the foothills of the Appalachians, which begin close to my home base. An hour later we were home, no muss, no fuss. I made similar flights with numerous friends over the next few months.

Twenty five or so flight hours later, a friend of mine (a student pilot) and I made my first X/C as PIC.

Small steps...small steps.

[Brian247028]

Once you get your license is a fine time to take friends and family on joy rides. I suggest doing that in the daytime and in good weather (visibility, wind, etc.), and it is probably best to stay relatively close to home, so you don't have to worry about weather changing before you return home. My first flight with a passenger was at 45 or so hours with my Dad. We went up on the Saturday after I got my license, and did an aerial tour of the foothills of the Appalachians, which begin close to my home base. An hour later we were home, no muss, no fuss. I made similar flights with numerous friends over the next few months.

Twenty five or so flight hours later, a friend of mine (a student pilot) and I made my first X/C as PIC.

Small steps...small steps.

I guess this is what I was thinking on how the process would take place. I also think comparing a 172 to a 747 is a big stretch. I don't believe that an airline lets their pilots fly around in 747's alone to practice. I would agree on the comment that even if you are in the air alone and get in over your head and crash you run the risk of taking out people on the ground. In the end if comes down to common sense.

[David Pavlich]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the progression that you have to fly as first officer before you get into the left seat when it comes to commercial?

David

Ask yourself this.
If you where setting in a 747 getting ready for takeoff and the PIC came over the radio and said to everyone, I just received my pilots license yesterday. Would you stay aboard that bird?

Or lets say he says, I have flown for 70 hrs, would stay aboard that bird? Iknow my answer, I would be running for the exit.

[1600vw]

Once you get your license is a fine time to take friends and family on joy rides. I suggest doing that in the daytime and in good weather (visibility, wind, etc.), and it is probably best to stay relatively close to home, so you don't have to worry about weather changing before you return home. My first flight with a passenger was at 45 or so hours with my Dad. We went up on the Saturday after I got my license, and did an aerial tour of the foothills of the Appalachians, which begin close to my home base. An hour later we were home, no muss, no fuss. I made similar flights with numerous friends over the next few months.

Twenty five or so flight hours later, a friend of mine (a student pilot) and I made my first X/C as PIC.

Small steps...small steps.

Kyle I could not agree more with your comment.

What happened in this case and in most cases like this, is this man took off for a few hundred mile trip on a day with with questionable weather along the route with passengers and none held any aviation certificate.

Some can argue this and that but the facts are people get there ticket and believe now they are rated to fly anywhere with anyone aboard. If people would take small steps our saftey issue's would be better.

This man tried to make a giant step with his children aboard and it cost them all dearly.

Just an example of how I do things.....A freind asked how many hrs he should fly off his new Homebuilt bird that has a Rotax that has sat for 20 years.

For those whom may not understand what I am saying. How long should he stay above his field before trying to venture out away from it.

I told him fly off 40 hrs. above his field or strip, then fly another 40 hrs. going maybe 3-5 miles away. After this he is ready to venture out away from home. I also said do what you want, but this is how I do it, and it has saved me and my bird more then once, or I would have been making some, off field landings.

I also told him if I could go out and buy a brand new bird then a 40 hr. fly off is fine, but these are not brand new certified birds. These are Home builts and treat them as such and be extra carefull with these for you do not want to be a statistic.

If you do this your chances of success is great and you will have a lot of fun. Do it any other way and he could live to regret it, or not live.

Just me but this is how I do things, you do what you want, I then walked away.

H.A.S.

[champ driver]

Brian, please don't let that one accident, or others, prevent you from getting your pilots license.

I've listened to that video, read all the other responses and thought about your questions too. It's obvious the accident pilot made a series of bad decisions and passed up opportunities to get on the ground when he had the chance. We can speculate on why he made those decisions, and what exactly he was trying to do while in flight, but, they're still speculation. The bottom line is he should'nt have been out there in those weather condidtions, with or without passengers. My personal opinion is that he should have jumped at the chance to get on the ground and worry about the departing delays or filling out the Feds paper work afterwards. Unfortunately, we as human beings sometimes don't make good decisions all the time, and some of us are better or worse than others in that respect. You can't teach good judgment, some of us have it and others don't.

I would guess that this man was a perfectly good pilot under normal weather circumstanses, But throw in the marginal weather and maybe some unfamiliarity with the area, and it's a whole different story.

Lets say you just got your license, would you feel safe flying on a calm clear day in an area you were familiar with? Of course you would. Would it really matter if you had passengers on board or not, not really. How would that change if it was windy and gusting 15-20 kts, and a direct crosswind? How about 3-4 miles vis and a 1500' ceiling, and it was getting dark on top of that? In those cases, having passengers on board or not doesn't make any difference either, my guess is you wouldn't feel too safe to make the flight.
What I'm trying to say is to start out with conditions you feel safe with and as you get more experience and skill you can increase your comfort in more challenging weather. Now before anyone gets their panties in a knot, I'm not saying you should work your way up to being out in any low vis weather, especially at night. You have to know your own personal and the planes limitations.

1600VW says that he would not carry any passengers until after 1000 hours. That's fine and it's his personal decision, can I fault him for that, absolutely not. Will most pilots do that, most will not or cannot. Start out in good weather and know your limitations, and the planes too. If you have at least some physical ability and coordination, and some common sense, you should be fine. Remember, if you don't bend any sheet metal, and you arrive without any scratches, your passengers will arrive safely too. In other words, don't do anything that could cause either of those two things to happen. And some of those decisions happen before you ever leave the ground.

Good luck, and hope you decide to take up pilot training.
Jim

[Brian247028]

Brian, please don't let that one accident, or others, prevent you from getting your pilots license.

Good luck, and hope you decide to take up pilot training.
Jim

Jim - This or others wouldn't scare me from getting my pilots license. Not to take this off topic but photography is my big hobby and that is why I hang out at AirVenture. This past summer I rented a plane (with a pilot) to do aerial photography of a yacht in sea trials. I help a friend crew her hot air balloon as well so I have plenty of things to keep me out of trouble. If I get my license and try to do aerial photography at the same time that might be a conflict of interest and cause a few problems....ha ha.

I simply like planes and flying from time to time. I have the itch now so in the next few weeks I hope to go up and do some winter aerial photography.

[martymayes]

Major airline will not hire a low time pilot for a reason. One can take the checkride pass it and start flying people, friends, family, is it safe or smart, I would say no. But understand when I say fly a passenger I am not talking about around the patch. I am talking x-country.

Read through the NTSB data base and you will see for yourself. We have restrictions on passengers in a car with a new driver. Why is this? Because its not safe.

When that bird went down in the Hudson, thank God a new pilot was not at the controls or acting as PIC.

Perhaps you should look at a new pilot's skill retention over the 2 yr period following his certification.

Statistically, the best time for a new pilot to take a passenger flying is the day after his checkride. He is on top of his game at that point, provided he doesn't decide to push into unknown territory with the pax on board. A yr later, he may have 100 hrs in his logbook, but if he hasn't taken any training during that time, his overall skills are somewhat lower than they were on checkride day.

Oh, airline pilots follow the same pattern. They are very sharp on the day after a PC, and over the time until their next training event, their skills atrophy. The difference is their skills are much higher to begin with, loss of proficiency does not make them dangerous.

[martymayes]

Today we have passenger limits for those with new drivers license. I believe we should do the same with a PP. Its all in the name of saftey. If we want to see better numbers in the forum of saftey we need to change our thinking. Its the fool whom does the same thing but expects different outcomes. If you want different sftey numbers you must also act different.

Actually, "we" do limit what a new pilot can do. It's in the regs and otherwise regulated by the industry.

This all started because someone posted an NTSB report about a man whom just passed his PP, took his children up with a friend and killed them all. not the first time and wont be the last. So tell those young ladies whom died....its ok for a low time pilot to fly family and I bet they would have a different answer then..Its ok....I bet they would run like the wind.

The accident you reference is somewhat more complex than your summary.

[nrpetersen]

I remember an article by the late Len Morgan describing his and Braniff's first revenue flight in their fully loaded 747 out of a hot Dallas non-stop for Honolulu. He was captain, yet the combined crew experience was only a few hours and his 747 experience was well under 10 hrs. He did say that takeoff was etched in his mind and never could be erased.

I can well imagine. What a writer.