Buried Spitfires Update

[rwanttaja]

Just my opinion, but I think it's entirely plausible that Spitfires could have been buried at Mingaladon Airfield. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but quite a few P-38s were bulldozed at Clark Field in the Philippines at the end of the war. If you don't believe me, just check out the photo here: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/airfiel...p38-dozer.html

Put some sand-and-spinach camo on them, paint a few roundels, and you could well be looking at the Burmese Spitfires.

For me the whole story is unbelievable. All who have served in the military, no matter for which country, know about the bureaucracy involved. They just do not loose anything without a trace in lists and files, especially in case of such a large number of first line fighters. So there should be a trace in the archives, if the story was true.

Yes, but: We are talking about the end of a world war. We are talking about men who have been 10,000 miles from home for several years.

Then, suddenly, the war is over. They're looking at a field with 100 pristine warbirds.

What to do with them? The Government has another 1,000 of them sitting around airfields and factories back home. No reason to ship them home; besides the vessels involved could be better involved in carrying hundreds of thousands of soldiers home for demobilization.

So, the supply folks in Burma (or the Philippines, or North Africa) are instructed to "dispose" of the aircraft. But how? Are they supposed to put them up for sale, scrap them for the metal value, what? It's almost impossible to get clarification of the orders...they can't pick up a cell phone to call the War Office, and what long-range radio links exist aren't going to be wasted on mere supply matters. It'll take months to query London and get the response.

So, the supply officers tell themselves, "This is the last task we have to do before getting on the ships back to England. None of us can leave until we complete the disposal. What should we do?"

They do what stumped officers have done for 2,000 years: They ask a sergeant.

And the sergeant introduces them to a fine old military term: "Expended in place." It means that the property has completed its intended function, is damaged beyond economical repair, and is just left where it's at. For aircraft, it's typically implemented by dropping a grenade into the cockpit. Those rich Yanks might bulldoze them into a neat pile, but it isn't really necessary. All you have to do is drop the grenade, stamp "Expended in Place" in the paperwork, and it's over. " Get on the ship, lads, we're headed for Blighty."

When (and if) the paperwork ever gets back to England, the receiving officer grunts and throws it away. The planes are accounted for and no longer exist. It's just BUMF at this point....

I don't doubt that there could be hundreds of Spitfires under the soil of Burma. What I doubt is whether there are enough intact parts remaining to put together even one complete aircraft. Heck, how much of the exterior skin of "Glacier Girl" is authentic WWII aluminum?

I'm convinced there's too much wishfull thinking and day dreaming involved.

Yep....

Ron Wanttaja

[KevinR]

Latest piece in AvWeb, http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#208056

Ron remember as the story goes these aircraft were still in their shipping crates.

[Thomas Stute]

Ron, you are a great story teller and I like your story. Well, thinks could have been like that, or somehow different. Like all of us, I would like to see the spits emerging from the soil of Burma but it is hard to believe in that. And you're completely right concerning corrosion.

[rwanttaja]

Ron remember as the story goes these aircraft were still in their shipping crates.

Reminds me of the time I took an airliner from DC to Seattle. The plane was full of high-school kids coming back from a band trip to Europe. I got stuck sitting next to their teacher, and he spent the whole trip telling music jokes. One was:

Q. What's the difference between a bass fiddle and a violin?
A. The bass fiddle burns longer.

You wrap those Spitfires with nice, flammable wood, and our theoretical British supply sergeant is just gonna smile. Slather on some nice ignitable creosote, and you're REALLY gonna make his day....


Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

It is reported on another site that a British man says he was a RAF Spitfire pilot in Burma in 1946 and never heard of any being buried, nor saw any such digging.

He makes another cogent point that although Spits were shipped in wooden crates, they were assembled and test flown at one major site, like India and then flown the the dispersed air fields.

Noted Spitfire expert Peter Arnold says he is back from the dig, and give the story a few more weeks to be sure.

[KevinR]

The story is over. The search bias been called off and they wre headed home. I really hoped this was true.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21483187

[Bill Greenwood]

Kevin, your reference says that the archeologists have calleed off their search at the main site. It doesn't say that David Cundall has stopped at the other sites.
Now I never thought the Spits were there, the buried story doesn't make any sense.

And Ron, the idea of purposely burning an new servicable Spitfire is abhorent to me and also makes no sense. In 1946 a Spitfire, especially a Mk XIV, was still a front line fighter, and had military value. Jets were begginning to come in , but the RAF used Spits up to 1958 and many other countries used and would have been glad to have them. Israel , India, and Ireland for instance.
So when we hear from Peter Arnold that there is no more searching going on or any good leads to follow, then I would say there is no realistic expectation of finding one. Until then, pehrhaps a small hope.

[Bill Greenwood]

There is another Spit story that I have heard, of which I have no proof or references at all, but here it is. I have no details, but it is a story that could have a grain of truth.

At the end of the war a Royal Navy carrier was returning to England with a deck load of Spitfires, when an order came down, no doubt from the "great grey men" in the Admiralty to discard the Spits by pushing them over the side.
The crews refused to carry out the order.

[KevinR]

Bill are you reading the right link? The second headline in link I posted today says "Archaeologists have called off a hunt for World War II Spitfires in Burma." Not the AvWeb story, the BBC story that was published today.

[rwanttaja]

And Ron, the idea of purposely burning an new servicable Spitfire is abhorent to me and also makes no sense. In 1946 a Spitfire, especially a Mk XIV, was still a front line fighter, and had military value. Jets were begginning to come in , but the RAF used Spits up to 1958 and many other countries used and would have been glad to have them. Israel , India, and Ireland for instance.

Doesn't really make sense in the context of 1946. There may have been a hundred Spitfires in Burma, but there were hundreds, if not thousands, still back in Europe. For that matter, the Supermarine production line was still cranking them out, and wouldn't stop for several more years. At the same time, DeHavilland was producing Vampires and Gloster was building Meteors. According to Wikipedia, there were 16 RAF squadrons with Meteors by 1946. I'm sure the RAF liked to keep some Spitfires around, but operationally, they were second-line fighters by 1946. Plenty extra, for any potential exporting.

Sure, they were perfect for some of the up-and-coming countries. But Israel didn't exist for another year; what's more, the people organizing that were actually FIGHTING the British. No one was thinking of selling Spitfires to Haganah. India, too, didn't become independent until 1947, and there was a LOT of British opposition. Gandi probably didn't want Spitfires, but there were others that probably thought they might be useful in encouraging the British to leave a bit quicker.

Yes, the Irish operated Spits for a while. But it was easy for them to take the quick hop across the Irish Sea and inspect potential purchases in Britain. No need to buy a Spit-in-a-Poke in Burma.

Two high-probability destinations could have been Australia and New Zealand. I don't doubt the RAAF and the NZRAF operated them post-war. But I think their records probably reflect where their planes came from, and I doubt they would have taken previously-buried aircraft as long as new ones could still be shipped from England.

Context is important. We get teary-eyed today, contemplating "The Few" and the birds they flew to victory. We look at the pictures of the post-war scrap yards and bemoan the Mustangs, Fortesses, and Liberators going into the shredders.

But in 1946? The war was over, the warriors wanted to get back to normal, and the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, Thunderbolts, and Wildcats were of no greater emotional impact than the rows of Sherman tanks and Fletcher-class destroyers awaiting disposition.

For a movie showing this context, I recommend, "The Best Years of Our Lives." The B-17 crewman, back from Europe, eagerly takes a job that involves scrapping the same airplanes he flew in combat.

Right now...assuming they existed at all...I think the fate of the Burmese Spitfires was in the hands of my theoretical grenade-juggling supply sergeant.... "Would that be sunny-side up, or easy over, sah?"

Ron Wanttaja