Where are all the young pilots?

[Hangar10]

Want my advice? buy an unfinished (but well documented...very important!) project and build your own, be self insured (that's called assuming responsibility) and fly the heck out of it and have a blast!

I agree... build your own... even if you start from scratch. That is what I am doing. I got my ticket at age 33 (now 40) and went through the same scenario you are talking about a few years back. My wife and I discussed the options, and while we could probably afford to purchase a Cherokee, the insurance and operating expenses would pretty much consume all of our entertainment budget. The only option I could come up with that wouldn't destroy the family budget (or patience) would be to build something. Will I get to fly right now! Well, yes and no. While my project is a long way from being airworthy, I have met a bunch of great people, and I occasionally get offered a ride to breakfast or a fly in. I am having a ball building my own airplane while learning about the people in my community, our chapter and a whole BUNCH of new skills.

Now before you say, "yeah, but a new RV or Zenith could cost $100k!" ... keep in mind that there are a LOT of options that can't always be found in the magazines. For example, I am building a Pietenpol Air Camper... not your thing? Ok, maybe a Wittman Tailwind, or Buttercup, a Fokker D-7, a Hatz biplane, a Parakeet, a Super Ace, or an EAA Bipe, or... well, you get the idea... there are a LOT of options, and many outperform those factory offerings that cost you $100+/hr.

You mention that it is "the money, honey", and you also suggest that all the "damn kids these days" comments is a bunch of rhetoric. While I don't totally disagree with you, I can also see a lot of the instant gratification mentality even among my age group. It blows most people's minds that I would consider a project that might take me 5 or 6 years, or longer. I guess some of us aren't so short sighted. Honestly, many of them are taking notice as my pile of wood starts to look like an airplane, but still, many insist that they just couldn't do it. Well, ok... so they obviously weren't meant to fly either. Perhaps PC solitare is more their speed. My point is, that one way or another it is going to cost you something to fly, whether it be time, money or both (one in the same to me)... just like it would cost you something to be involved with shooting sports, amateur radio, remote control hobbies, bass fishing rig, you name it... big boy toys aren't cheap, but they can be affordable. The building approach (if you have the patience) not only offers you a much better understanding of the craft you plan to pilot, but it also allows you to start/stop as your budget dictates. You would be surprised how much entertainment (and education) your dollar will provide when you are scratch building. Not only that, but the old timers apparently love to help out the younger builders (parts, suggestions, material, etc.)... especially once they see progress being made (i.e. not just talking about it at Saturday coffee... actually making sparks and sawdust).

Perhaps I'm veering all over the place here... my main point is, embrace the spirit of our hobby. Do you think that all of those guys back in the 50s and 60s were buying Cubs, Champs, 150s, etc.? Indeed, some were... just as there are some doing the same today, but take a look at all the homebuilding that was going on during those years. Honestly, with the economy the way it is, I hope that more people will consider homebuilding rather than walk away from our hobby. Speaking of camaraderie, not only will you find it at your local airport or EAA chapter, but if you choose to build, you will likely find a friendly and knowledgeable support group (type group) online. Not only will they become your friends, but they know your project better than anyone else and can help you through any tough spots.

Just an option... one that many choose to pursue rather than fret over the fact that they can't fly three hours a week in the local rental. Let's just say you flew once a week in a $100 rental... that’s $5200/yr. A nice airplane could be built in just a few years on a budget like that, and operating costs shouldn't be anywhere close to that annual figure once you are in the air, yet you could still fly it whenever you want. Look a little further down the road and ask yourself what kind of flying you want to be doing. Do you have a desire to fly professionally? Buckle down and get busy training... now! Do you have a need to fly cross-country? I guess you better figure out a way to accommodate that. Do you just want to fly out for pancakes, go to fly ins and chase your buddies around the clouds? You could do that with a homebuilt... and then just rent that cross country machine when you need it, which in my case is never.

Oh, I also have an 8 year old son (started a little later than my 20s)... but fortunately he LOVE this stuff, and so does my wife.

I don't mean any of this to sound combattive... like I said, I've been right where you are, and I've come to the conclusion that aviation, while not cheap, is still available to everyone with a desire.

How bad do you want to fly? Just some things to consider.

[Joe LaMantia]

WELL SAID HANGER10!

You have the real spirit of EAA and that is exactly what motivated the founder in the first place. As a former Cost Analyst I will tell everyone right up front that you can't cost justify personal flying for pure fun. I justify the activity based on the value I place on it in my own life. I'm looking at 70 candles on my next birthday cake, quite a bonfire! I've been flying as a pilot for 20 years and I "budget" my time and $ so I can log a few hours each month. It get peace of mind in the "low and slow", but still haven't had 2 flight that were identical. If your young, get involved to the level you can afford and don't waste a lot of time and energy on the things you wished you could afford. If you have already acquired a license you know how great you feel in having accomplished that milestone, imagine how it would feel to fly something you spend months or years building!

Joe

[martymayes]

I used to be ATC at PTK and belonged to a club. There were quite a few of them at PTK.

Bob, I'm sure of that. You have to remember that Oakland county has more airplanes than the rest of the state combined. I'm tuned in and there really isn't anything available unless I want to drive ~1 hr or more each way.

It really depends on how bad you want to fly and keep your costs to a minimum.

Well, it isn't about me at all. I have a teenage son who is interested in airplanes. I'd like to let him do some regular flying so he can see what it's all about. And I'd like to let him sit in the left seat (but clubs and rentals frown on that suggestion). My wife is also a non-current private pilot who would like to fly on occasion. Since I taught her how to fly initially, I think I'm qualified to work with her on recurrency but similar problems with that plan.

BTW, I was in a club over in AA for about 6 months. Due to a back injury I asked to switch to "non-flying" member status but somehow that didn't happen until my account was drained via monthly dues and other fees. So depending on how you look at it, I either made a big donation to the club or rented a 152 for a few hrs @ ~$225/hr.

[tonycondon]

potential young pilots are busy paying school loans, then comes love, marriage, and a baby in a baby carriage, and there isn't much point in trying to get them into flying until they are at least 45.

[rleffler]

Well, it isn't about me at all. I have a teenage son who is interested in airplanes. I'd like to let him do some regular flying so he can see what it's all about. And I'd like to let him sit in the left seat (but clubs and rentals frown on that suggestion). My wife is also a non-current private pilot who would like to fly on occasion. Since I taught her how to fly initially, I think I'm qualified to work with her on recurrency but similar problems with that plan.

Ah, more details..... I would have a different recommendation and something that I did for awhile. I purchased a Cherokee 180 (I'm too large to comfortably fit in the smaller 140). I used that to become current after being idle for 20 years. I then proceeded to get my IFR rating and my 16 year old son proceeded to get his PPL. Becausing of all the training, it was getting flown quite a bit and cost significanlty less than the rentals. Also not dealing with booked rentals and a known maintenance schedule was just icing on the cake. I even invested $20k in the panel and replaced the old loran, broken dme, and ADF with a Garmin 430, Garmin 340, and an engine analyser. I sold it after about 4 years and broke even on my capital expense. Obviously variable expense for maintenance and fuel were basically all it cost me to fly for four years. I did hang onto the Cherokee until I was about 2 years into my RV-10 build. I had to sell it to fund the engine and avionics for the RV-10.

I was lucky in the fact I sold the Cherokee just before the market tanked. I don't know if you can still pull this off with the current economy, but it may be worth the try. The magic number, if you weren't aware is about a 100 hours. If you can fly 100 hours a year, it's usually less expensive to own instead of rent.

[Rootski]

All industries are contingent on demand to survive. If the next generation of pilots can't really come to pass in the current environment, what's to become of GA? I predict that the FAA, insurers, and manufacturers have all accidentally conspired to price themselves out of existence in 20-30 years if something doesn't change.

[Hangar10]

potential young pilots are busy paying school loans, then comes love, marriage, and a baby in a baby carriage, and there isn't much point in trying to get them into flying until they are at least 45.

Join the military... earn a scholarship... or otherwise look for more affordable ways to earn an education or pilots license. Student loans aren't a necessary fact of life. The military isn't for everyone, you say? Well, neither is flying, or a variety of other things in life.

I will stand by this fact... where there is a will, there is a way. It may not be easy or cheap, but nothing worth doing ever is. It is possible to fly... even on a budget. Sure, I too would love to fly a P-51 Mustang... better yet, and F-4 Phantom... but that isn't likely to happen. You have to be realistic, you have to determine your needs//wants/goals, and you have to set realistic expectations based upon those goals. If you have determined that you can't afford to fly that $100 rental, well you are probably right... it's time to survey other options. Several have been offered in this thread.

By the way... love, marriage, baby and carraige... all decisions that have consequences and carry certain obligations. Not everyone chooses to have a family... not everyone chooses to live in a 4000sq ft house... not everyone chooses to drive a brand new car... and not everyone chooses to fly the $100 rental. Choices, we all make them.

[tonycondon]

i agree Mark. I have made decisions and understand that the consequences of those decisions allow me to fly. there was also a fair amount of good and bad luck that led me to where I am.

Fact is most young people (25ish) are just too busy trying to get their heads above water financially to be able to even think about flying as a hobby. 50 year olds (kids out of school) have much more disposable income on average.

[Louis]

I'm just wondering, is it really more expensive for young people to fly than it used to be? I started flying in 1976. The price for a Citabria or C-150 was $24.00/ hour solo and $34.00/hr. dual. I was making between $3.00 and $4.00 an hour working at the airport and restaurant jobs. What is the ratio of cost of aircraft rental to entry level job wages now? ....Louis

[Floatsflyer]

With apologies to Pete Seeger:

Where have all the the young pilots gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the young pilots gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the young pilots gone?
Taken young wives everyone.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?