I don't know about that, I flew one from Lantana Florida to West End Airport on G.B.I. one time.Originally Posted by Bill Berson
I don't know about that, I flew one from Lantana Florida to West End Airport on G.B.I. one time.
I really love the idea of using ultralights to get people into the air cheaply! I flew a Challenger back in New Zealand years ago and with an instructor at the local club it cost me $20 an hour. At the same time I was learning to fly tin @ $120 per hour. I thought that I had to get my PPL in order to get the most out of flying, but the most fun I ever had was low and slow in the Challenger. Practicing emergency landings on a beach and flying over the surf at 15 feet is still my favourite flying memory. I love the idea of using U/L as the gateway drug because nothing gets you hooked more IMHO! After our open source LSA, maybe we need to do an open source U/L!
Just to get back on topic, what if each club member was also a part owner of the aircraft? Form an ownership co-operative/LLC and the annual fee charged covered the share as well as insurance. This is no different to any other aircraft syndicate and should not be a regulatory issue for this?
Just as an aside, in NZ, I was able to basically use the club ultralight for instruction without owning it, however up here in Canada, the regulations don't allow an ultralight to be used for commercial purposes, so if you don't have a PPL and you want to fly an ultralight, you have to purchase a 2 seater and then get an instructor to teach you to fly it. Retarded.
John Nicol
EAA #835498
Yes, there would be a very large social element to this for the teens.
We had a pretty active ultralight club back in the early 1980s. The thing that made it "active" was a concentration of ultralights at one airfield. Although they were all single seaters, people would come out on a calm night, spend some time flying and then socialize together.
The airfield got sold to a developer and the club got scattered to several airports. The club has not been the same since. From that experience, I realized that key to this concept is having a concentration of trainers.
Harley has been hugely successful with their H.O.G. organization. They created a social organization around motorcycling.
BTW, the lack of a social structure is what the AOPA study found to be [to their surprise] one of the main reasons GA flight training has an 80% dropout rate. Generally people knew the cost before starting but found it a very "socially lonely" activity. There wasn't enough contact with peers that were also training.
It's even worse than in the past because if you go to an airport today you have to negotiate padlocked gates, key cards, electrified fences with razor ribbon, turnstiles and tazers just to get in the airport. If you go just to socialize probably end up on a TSA watch list somewhere. None of that says "wecome." I can't imagine having a charcoal grill on a deck next to a hangar like we had back in the '70's/'80's at an aero club where we could hang out, grill, watch and critique landings. And folks think the internet is harsh, lol, should have heard some of those critiques.
I do have a question about ultralights Buzz, is the ultralight activity readily insurable? Can you get liability insurance? Can you get "hull" coverage on your vehicle? Can you get insurance for an ultralight airport operation? Just curious if insurance is readily available for those operations?
It seems to me that ultralight insurance has come and gone over the years. I think the main demand for it has been by 3rd party requirements. [I.e. as a way to put a hurdle up for ultralights, they were required to have insurance in order to operate at some airports.]
As for hull insurance, I've never explored it for any of the ultralights I've owned over the years. I think it would be hard to get for anything without an "N" number. Fortunately, we don't need an A&P to fix something if we bend it. So there may not be a huge demand for hull insurance on an ultralight.
As for the availability of insurance for an ultralight operation. It would probably come from the same source that insures other action sports like the parasailing operations, hang gliding training ops, etc.
[I've been around ultralights for a long time and I've never know any owner that bought the insurance the periods when it was on the market.]
Buzz, I like your idea and give you credit for progressive thinking. However, without being able to at least partially shield participants from strict liability, it will be a tough sell.
I must be even more odd than I thought because I always felt that flying is often too much of a social activity. Despite Marty's dire assessment of the average airport, I have yet to see one even close to that that was not a military installation. Most of them are much more like the "70's/80's at an aero club" scenario than the overbearing big brother option. Granted, I don't see that many people just bumming around (two or three in a group on most cases) but the security is lax at best.BTW, the lack of a social structure is what the AOPA study found to be [to their surprise] one of the main reasons GA flight training has an 80% dropout rate. Generally people knew the cost before starting but found it a very "socially lonely" activity. There wasn't enough contact with peers that were also training.
Last edited by steveinindy; 08-15-2012 at 08:47 PM.
Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.
"I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.
I floated the idea out here to figure out where all the worms are in the apple. On any idea, the originator tends to look at all the pros and miss a lot of the cons.
There certainly are other activities like this that have the same liability issues. On a local lake they rent out jet skis. The average participant probably gives little thought to their potential personal liability. The AOPA sells renters insurance but, again, I don't know a lot of aircraft renters that have their own renters insurance.
So it's hard to predict whether not being able to shield participants from strict liability would affect the growth of the concept.
These are all the unknowns.
Last edited by Buzz; 08-16-2012 at 07:33 AM.
Marty, My Sweetie Pie and I moved to Texas from Arizona in 2003, and did the owner of T-27 in the El Paso area a favor, by giving him a rest, and running the Airport for six months. There were NO locked gates, actually there were, and STILL are NO gates at the Airport. There is NO Razor wire on the small amount of fencing that IS there, and no one has ever tried to blow up any buildings with Cessna 152's or ultralights launched from there. This is no "Ultralight Flightpark, either, it is an uncontrolled, unicom only 7,000 foot lighted, paved airstrip. There are pilot's, both with aircraft hangered there, and visiting pilot's, as well as people who just want to "dream about flying", in and out of there off and on throughout the day, any day of the week. I guess if you are a Jet reliever for a major hub, and have several Hawkers, and Lears hangered, your security measures go up exponentially, but for an airport without a tower, who's "Claim to fame" is a single Aero Commander, everyone can still be very friendly, and continue to hold the monthly "Young Eagles" events.
Oh yes, and the BBQ's are occaisionally pulled out beside the hangers there, as well, I guess it's all just a part of far West Texas Hospitality. "Y'all come back real soon now, Y'a hea'ah".
Brie
Last edited by taylorcraftbc65; 08-16-2012 at 08:53 AM.
Personally I prefer more analog panels. That said, as a kit distributor working the booths at the shows, the customers coming into the booth 'demand' glass panels. If we don't provide what the customer wants (or 'think' they want), they will go to another aircraft that WILL provide that product.
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