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Thread: Has General Aviation Missed the Potential of Basic Ultralights?

  1. #131

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    The new electric powered ultralights might help with noise in the neighborhood. Dale Kramers electric Lazair was impressive, but looked a bit complex. And the cost of batteries is still high. A good four stroke could be quiet as well.

  2. #132
    Dana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    While concentrating is great for building participation because of the social element, concentration has it's downsides when it involves 2-cycle engines spinning propellers and all the noise that combination can generate. Especially when the ability to spread that noise around by getting away from the takeoff point is restricted as it is by the slow flying characteristics of PPGs.
    Exactly. A PPG is essentially an aerial dirt bike in many ways... lots of fun, little utility, more fun in a group, and potentially annoying to the neighbors. We have lots of places to fly PPGs around here, and some of us still fly them, but only the now closed airport could tolerate the frequent activity of a number of PPGs. The other locations are OK for one or two guys to fly occasionally, then the next day fly somewhere else, but the neighbors would certainly get upset if there were half a dozen flying there every day.

  3. #133

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    Happy PPG & Ultralight Solution

    [QUOTE=Dana;22628] A PPG is essentially an aerial dirt bike in many ways... lots of fun, little utility, more fun in a group, and potentially annoying to the neighbors. QUOTE]


    So the answer to reviving General Aviation is a gaggle of quiet PPGs. I can imagine a large flock of PGs/PPGs circling quietly overhead and the general public looking up with awe and saying "I would like to do that". That is basically what happens at Tiger Mountain, our local paraglider hang out. On a nice day the landing zone parking lot is overflowing with vehicles of pilots and wan bees participating in the activities, both active pilots and social participants. Sometimes there should be more of a welcoming attitude but in general it is a great place with good public acceptance.

    The sight of a single silent PG circling overhead a non congested residential area at 3,000 feet is a similar to the sight of a flying saucer in the 50's.

  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyfalcons View Post
    LOL, okay good luck with the insurance quote then for teaching kids how to fly ultralights with zero dual training.
    It'll be the same luck instructors had finding insurance using the dual method to do ultralight instruction under the old training exemption. Which was no luck. Didn't make any difference how old the student was.

    There never was a reliable source of insurance for dual ultralight instruction in the years the dual exemption existed.

    We'd be running under the same waivers all ultralight instruction has run under.

    Kitty Hawk Kites has taught 300,000 people how to fly a hangglider without dual instruction. I doubt they've been running since 1974 uninsured. They've had a great safety record and have collected the data to document it and be insurable.

    In the interim, we'll go the waiver route the ultralight instructor community has always had to use.
    Last edited by Buzz; 03-05-2013 at 09:03 AM.

  5. #135
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    Yeah, have fun telling parents "We just send your kids up. We could use two-seat machines to give actual instruction but we'd rather not."
    Ryan Winslow
    EAA 525529
    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
    Some points for clarification:

    Man....you have really dated yourself with the ARSA and TRSA stuff, those things disappeared nearly twenty years ago (might be a couple of TRSA's still around somewhere)...
    check the AFD, more than a couple TRSAs are still around.

  7. #137
    After reading this thread. I would say that:
    1.it might not be a bad idea at all but you might look into NOT limiting the group to just teens.
    2.the side tracks of getting the FAA to revisit Pt 103 probably not a good idea!. Look into SSDR that is now in the UK.
    Briefly it is 10 K per 1 sq. meter. But that is done by empty weight! 35 kt stall max but NO max speed limit.
    3.With the materials available today there is no reason to have a non compliant UL.

  8. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyfalcons View Post
    Yeah, have fun telling parents "We just send your kids up. We could use two-seat machines to give actual instruction but we'd rather not."
    Your use of the word "up" indicates no firsthand understanding of the student's experience under the SSTM [single seat training method] in trainer ultralights [2-axis Quicksilver MX].

    Trained properly, their first "up" a foot off the grass for a distance of a 100 ft. under complete control and with complete confidence. The next couple dozen flights might be a foot or two higher with the distances increasing. If they exceed that height or are not doing it with complete control and confidence, they were not instructed properly.

    The main reason the instructor needs to be in the airplane is to take over when the student gets "behind the airplane". With the right ultralight trainer aircraft and the right single seat training methodology and an experienced SSTM instructor, the student never ever gets behind the ultralight.

    If you learned to fly using the dual method, it is a COMPLETELY different teaching sequence than the SSTM.

    Dual instruction is given in a way that the student starts out completely behind the airplane and slowly learns the skills to stay with the airplane. When I took my first GA lesson at 16, I was completely behind the airplane. It took me 9 hrs to get to the point I could stay with it at all times and solo.

    Again, if one's only experience is dual instruction, one will be hard pressed to understand how different the SSTM learning sequence is. The difference in the trainer [beyond just having a single seat], what the student experiences [e.g. in the way of "up"], the different sequence of how the necessary skills are acquired.

    -Buzz
    Last edited by Buzz; 03-05-2013 at 12:53 PM.

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