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Thread: TIG Welding a Fuselage-Insight needed

  1. #11
    Jeff Point's Avatar
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    Allen, I gotta respectfully disagree with you. I thought Aaron's comments were spot on. Based on the tone I suspect that they know each other. I respect Charlie for putting his rookie efforts up here for all to see and he did invite the criticism. His welds aren't terrible but they could use some improvement, he was looking for insight and Aaron offered it, along with an offer to help him get better.

    As a tech counselor I've had to tell people (rarely) that their workmanship is not good and the parts they made are not airworthy. It ain't easy telling someone that their baby is ugly but sometimes it needs to be done. Building an airplane requires, among other things, thick skin sometimes.
    Jeff Point
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  2. #12
    Aaron Novak's Avatar
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    Allen,
    No harshness meant at all. Purely technical. When you are dealing with something of an engineering nature, sometimes you need to leave emotion out of it. Think of it as a student/teacher relationship. Notice I never said the welds were unsafe, thats for Charlie to judge, I just pointed out areas of improvement. It takes a lot of guts to post images of your own workmanship in a public forum, and it also takes guts to post honest thoughts on it. Unfortunately what gets difficult is that there are more people watching this than just Charlie, and many people will look to this to judge their own workmanship and so keeping responses private is not really fair to them. I see this as excellent potential for a learning experience not only for Charlie, but for others as well. Nothing I mentioned was for asthetics, and in all they will probably be just fine. Another thing to realize, and this is something that I tell students of mine, is that the only reason I will be a little "hard" on you, is that I want you to be safe, nothing more, nothing less. This is supossed to be fun afterall!

  3. #13
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    Aaron, once I start getting my aircraft built, you're invited to come down and critique the heck out of it at each of my "So what did I muck up this time around?" parties that I plan to host in the hangar. Beer, food and magnifying glasses will be provided. That is exactly what I want to hear from folks. 'Good enough' is not good enough in my book. That goes for the rest of you as well. Come out when I post the notices and let me hear it.

    Do they need to be as perfect as the TIG welds on P&W turbine blades
    Hmmm...I wish I could get that level of accuracy. Then again, I just flat out need to learn to weld at all first!

  4. #14

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    I think Aaron's comments were appropriate constructive criticism...as the OP wanted! Airplanes are made to try and kill you....having advice like that on your workmanship may just save your life. Myself and ANYONE should welcome that criticism when building an aircraft, it might just save your LIFE.

    As an A&P and IA, I see plenty of airplanes that I would not get into, people tend to push their luck a little more then I would personally. Keeping people safe, learning methods, PERFECTING methods are what this forum is for. Otherwise just don't post images of your work and you will never have to worry about having your feelings hurt :-)

  5. #15
    Eric Page's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy
    Quote Originally Posted by AllenR
    Do they need to be as perfect as the TIG welds on P&W turbine blades?
    Hmmm...I wish I could get that level of accuracy.
    Steve, ain't happenin' till you get a CNC robotic TIG welder at the end of your arm...

    Great thread guys; just what EAA is all about!
    Eric Page
    Building: Kitfox 5 Safari | Rotax 912iS | Dynon HDX
    Member: EAA Lifetime, AOPA, ALPA
    ATP: AMEL | Comm: ASEL, Glider | ATCS: CTO
    Map of Landings

  6. #16
    Neil's Avatar
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    I try not to get into welding threads too much simply because a lot of what is out there is opinion and not all opinions are correct. You can find someone willing to argue with anyone.

    I suspect Charlie has no intent of becoming a commercial welder of aircraft and he really has a lot of guts to put pictures of his work up for others to judge. I do a good bit of aircraft welding and none of what I have done has ever failed but there are people better at it than me. I do find Aarons comments accurate though.

    Among the recommendations I would make would be to get with a good welder, ask for guidance and practice some more. You are getting there but you have not yet mastered the clean, even weld. If you aren't using RG 70 wire you might give some a try. The other thing that I do is to reserve the TIG welding for parts that I can jig up and weld on the table. This way you can brace up and control the Tig torch well enough to prevent making a career out of re grinding the tungsten and the weld that the tungsten stuck to. I prefer to use a Gas (O/A) torch (RG 45 wire) to weld the fuselage as it is too dificult for me to work around the tubing, inside and out, with a big clunky helmet and trying to control the heat with a foot control. For me the gas torch is more forgiving of my unsteady hands when there is no place to brace up on for control. Proper Gas welding technique will leave a weld that looks as good as an average Tig weld. When I built me Sonerai back in 83 every one thought it was Tig welded but it was all O/A with a Harris torch I bought at a pawn shop.

    Just my thoughts.
    Last edited by Neil; 08-26-2011 at 09:06 PM.

  7. #17
    AllenR's Avatar
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    I don't want to make a big deal about this and I'm sure that Charlie can handle the criticism. My point is that other builders on the forum may see that and say "boy, I'm never going to put myself out there like Charlie did". In all my builds, I've welcomed the tech counselors into my shop and told them to be brutally honest as I'm sure you have as well. But on a public forum, I think we need to exhibit a critical tone that is more like coaching than cold criticism. My background is education and we always practiced the rule: "tell the kid 2 things he's doing right before you hit him with what he's doing wrong, and always give a solution to help improve his skill". That keeps them learning and motivated. I've been on other builder forums and if the criticism of a picture was harsh, you wouldn't see another picture posted by anyone for 6 months.

    Maybe I'm getting too sensitive in my old age.
    Allen Rice

    Skybolt
    RV9A
    Pietenpol

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllenR View Post

    Maybe I'm getting too sensitive in my old age.
    Yeah, I think you're just reading into it too much. Again, if you don't want honest, true opinions, don't put up a thread, don't put up pictures. Go ahead and risk your safety. I commend Charlie on posting his welds, and he should adhere to the advice given....its for his own interest and safety, not for anyone else's.

  9. #19
    Neil's Avatar
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    Couple of things I didn't mention, I like the 3/32 tungsten and I find the 3/32 wire easier to use than 1/16 in some areas so I keep both on hand. Also the cleaner the tubing and wire, the cleaner the weld will be. Having dirty wire and parts will shorten the life of the gas lens quite a bit. Wiping the wire and the parts with acetone or lacquer thinner helps a lot. The smaller the nozzle the better because the tungsten doesn't need to stick out so far and when the tungsten is short you don't stick it so often. Generally you look a little too hot so you might want to bring the amps down a little. That will let you slow down and have more control. Grinding the tungsten parallel with its length instead of with the circumference helps keep ark wander to a minimum. Don't grind the tungsten with a dirty wheel or belt or it will drive you nuts trying to figure out what is going on.

    If you are into bifocals like me you may need to buy some readers at the drug store that give the correct focus for your arm length to the weld. These days I don't see as well and shake a bit more and it shows in my welds.

    Hey Al, hows the Skybolt coming? Haven't seen you on the BIPLANEFORUM in a while.
    Last edited by Neil; 08-27-2011 at 07:42 AM.

  10. #20
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    LOL Man to have the budget for one of those. Still, I'm going to be anal retentive about the quality of welding on my aircraft.

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