SNF vs Copperstate?

[FloridaJohn]

Dear Florida John,
if you are in Florida, not only does the heat in Az, not sound too bad , but it won't feel too bad from 1800 miles or so away.
But it is another thing entirely if you are actually there and in it.

Now if you believe that the high temp there in Oct is really only 91, you ought to buy some property around Phoenix. I think you can get it at a pretty good discount now.

I don't just believe it, I know it to be true. But you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Check it out for yourself. Here, I'll help you. This is the yearly temperatures at Casa Grande Municipal (KCGZ):


This graph is from here, if you want to check it out for yourself. The vertical blue line is today, so you can see the temperature is pretty much near the peak this time of year. If you are interesting in only October 25th, you can go here and see the temperatures I posted earlier.

I have presented you with facts and data, you can provide your own data that shows what you think to be true and I will look at that. I think you will find, if you bother to do the slightest amount of research, that I am correct and you are wrong.

I was told by the director that if I brought a warbird to what was then Copperstate, that there was not a parking space for me, much less any reimbursement of free room or fuel. I got the hint.

I think this has more to do with why you are so down on this particular fly-in than the weather does. You won't get any sympathy from me, though. I have yet to attend a fly-in where anyone is willing to pay me to attend. Not only do I have to pay for my own fuel, I also have to pay my own entrance fee, and buy my own food. So, I'm sorry your gravy train ended, and maybe I would be upset if I no longer got something for free, but the majority of people have to pay their own way.

[Eric Page]

First, Phoenix is a hot, dry, polluted, and except for irrigation, mostly barren area. It is a big city, with all the ills, traffic and crime of big cites.

Largely true, though what it has to do with Casa Grande, apart from being hot and dry, escapes me.

There is one attraction near Phoenix, major glider flying near there at AZ Soaring at Estrella, really good school or at least is was years ago when I was there.

Arizona Soaring is still in business. I got a commercial add-on there a few years ago. Great people, good training, reasonable prices, and -- dare I say it -- weather that's conducive to training almost every day. It's about equidistant between Phoenix and Casa Grande, just west of Maricopa [map].

I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

Go, Joe!!


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Brian, if you're interested in a trans-continental cross country to attend a good airshow next year, you should think about the Arlington Fly-In and Sport Aviation Convention at Arlington, WA (KAWO). It's not affiliated with EAA anymore, but it's still a great medium size show. Bigger than Copperstate, smaller than SNF or AVOSH. Plenty of aircraft of all types, and the weather in the Pacific NW this time of the year is usually glorious.

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, Mr. Florida or Mr. John, no last name, you have certainly found me out. I thought that "gravy train" that i had going at the old Copperstate fly in would just last forever, and I'd continue to get rich off it. Nothing boost ones income more than getting a free parking space just for bringing a plane to a fly in.

Now it might surprise you to know that the airshow or flyin might not be paying me just because I am so young, tall, dark, handsome, wise, and charming, although of course I am all those and more so.

It might just have something to do with the reputation and the popularity of the vintage and historic plane that I would be bringing to the show. It might not be your cup of tea, but the plane did win "PEOPLE'S CHOICE" at SUN N Fun which is kind of like 3rd place for best of show. Also won some 1st and 2nd place awards at other smaller EAA shows, like Longmont , Greeley and Steamboat., here in Colorado, as well as some feature stories in Flying and other magazines.

I was giving you credit for being familiar with normal practices in airhows and/or flyins. Perhaps that is not the case, maybe you are new to this or not in that side of aviation, hard to tell about someone when they write under an alias. So, back to some basics.

There are 3 kinds of people that often if not usually get invited and reimbursed to attend an event:
1. Celebrities like maybe Sully and Skiles, or Pappy Boyington or Bob Hoover, or some such famous person, maybe even Harrison Ford.
That certainly is not me.
2. People whose flying ability or performance will entertain or draw a crowd. This includes the many for pay full time aerobatic acts among others, like John Mohr who I think is well worth an appearance fee.
Mostly that is not me, though I have done a few entertainment type flights in a few planes that I was rated in, when the owner needed a pilot.. By no means is it my full time job, nor would I want it to be even if I was at that level. I have never claimed to be the next great star of aviation, and I don't even have a tight flight suit with lot's of sponsor patches, and I don't have a P R agent.
3. People who are invited because of the popular plane they are associated with and can bring to the show. Example it was mentioned the CAF B-17 might come.
It is common practice, at many, though not all, shows to provide some items expense free for these categories, especially no. 3
Now, if you or the folks at Casa Grande can get the B-17 to operate for free, at their own expense,then that is a pretty good sales job.
Let's say you are Nellis Air Force Base, and it is a big anniversary. You want some vintage planes to fill out the show for those to whom just modern noisy smelly jets are not the end all. You want a P-47 to honor the pilot lost in the war who the base is named after and the plane he flew. So you call around and find one in Texas, one in California. The owner and pilot would like to come. Their flight expense is perhaps a minimum of $1800 per hour. So if you have funding you offer $5k or so for the hour or two flight, and this is often negotiable. Either way, it is common, almost always done, that the show will of course provide free rooms, hopefully at a good hotel, some free meals, often a fun group meal and maybe a free rental car, and a fuel allotment, perhaps 200 gal or whatever is expected to be used in the show.
Some shows are of course, smaller and have less money, but almost always they provide room, some food, and show fuel.
In 30 years or so of being a pilot in airshows and aviation events, as well as part of the staff that put on about 10 popular and successful shows, there would be only one or two that I ever heard tell a pilot who wanted to bring a show plane that they didn't even have a parking space for the plane.

You mention that you have to pay when you go to a show. Do you fit in any of the 3 categories above that often get paid to attend?
This year at Osh, I won't be in any of the categories and will be paying for my own expenses.

I hope Casa Grande has a good s SAFEhow and/or fly in. I'd like to check it out, on my own pay of course, but the idea of the 44 degree weather kind of worries me, two of my vintage planes don't have heaters.

[WLIU]

Hello Brian,

A few years ago I flew from NH to the Golden Gate bridge and back in an antique airplane. I stopped at a fly-in in California and spent a few days at the Reno Air Races. Flying that distance you have to enjoy the journey, not just the destination. I can recommend a trip like that, but as you note you need to have a lot of time blocked out and some patience with the weather.

Sun-N-Fun is a great show and for a NH pilot it is at a great time of the year - right about when you really really need a break from the snow. The weather fronts tend to run north-south that time of year so you can watch for the forecast to give you a good couple of days and run down the coast. Navigation is easy - keep the blue on the left and the brown on the right. Florida temps are very comfortable in April.

For what its worth, you can see everything at Sun-N-Fun in a couple of days, so it is not that much bigger than what Copperstate sounds like. But it is closer, relatively speaking, and at a good time of year for a NH pilot.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Greenwood]

In looking at the Copperstate web site, it seems obvious that it has changed from the large shows we used to have at Mesa and Williams, when Carl was involved.
It seems that the one at Casa Grande is a flyin, no show at all, and is focused on the smaller homebuilt type planes. I hope that it draws enough folks to be successful and is safe, and can be enjoyable in its own scale.

[steveinindy]

So far as SNF is concerned how is it for like vendors, etc? I've never been. Is it more like a fly-in (like the way Copper State is described on here) or closer to Oshkosh and other conventions? We are considering SNF next year but have no first hand knowledge of it obviously. I don't think a literally cross-country trip is really in the works for something like Copper State at least until I get the Vireo build completed.

[Bill Greenwood]

SNF is almost a duplicate of Osh , but perhaps about a half smaller. We really only use the part of the airport, pretty much excluding the north side.
The airport is a little smaller also, and it seems to me to be therefor easier to get from one side to the other. You can walk from the warbird tent on the east part around to the west side where the commercial vendor hangars are in perhaps 10 min, much easier than EAA and don't really need a shuttle ride. You can go from the nw part , like homebuilts over to the se part where the ultralights and their runway is likewise in about 15 min.
SF doesn't have the sheer numbers of each type as Osh, but has a pretty good sample of most of it.
Seems to me the vendor food is better at SF, a couple of decent options, but nobody goes to EAA for the food.
Lakeland is ok as a town, IF you are staying in one of the hotel/motels there. There is an abundance of the average mass chain restaurants, and even one gourmet type, which I am going to keep a secret for when and if I return. Like Osh, lodging fills up and many people end up having to drive 30 min to a nearby town. The area is not quite as green and pretty as Osh, many smaller lakes, but is nice enough.
There are lots of nearby airports to fly to or divert to if needed, and many other places to see in the area, and state.
EAA so dominates Osh, more so than at Lakeland. Therefore you can go in a restaurant or a store in Lal and it not be full of EAA or airplane people. Lal seems just a little less friendly and really a little less welcoming than in Wisconsin.
Fresh Florida orange juice tastes a whole lot better, than Wisconsin "we only have Pepsi".

[Kyle Boatright]

So far as SNF is concerned how is it for like vendors, etc? I've never been. Is it more like a fly-in (like the way Copper State is described on here) or closer to Oshkosh and other conventions? We are considering SNF next year but have no first hand knowledge of it obviously. I don't think a literally cross-country trip is really in the works for something like Copper State at least until I get the Vireo build completed.

Steve, it isn't apples to apples, but SnF is basically a small scale Oshkosh. It probably has 25% of the aircraft, workshops, attendance, etc. It has lost much of the grass roots feel that you can still find if you know where to look at Wittman. On the vendor side, most of the major aviation vendors are at both shows.


I can't speak for Copperstate.

[steveinindy]

Steve, it isn't apples to apples, but SnF is basically a small scale Oshkosh. It probably has 25% of the aircraft, workshops, attendance, etc. It has lost much of the grass roots feel that you can still find if you know where to look at Wittman. On the vendor side, most of the major aviation vendors are at both shows.

Thank you Kyle. That's kind of what I figured but I didn't want to assume. Thank you for your input as well Bill.

Fresh Florida orange juice tastes a whole lot better, than Wisconsin "we only have Pepsi".

But Wisconsin does have much better beer. That said, as a Coke drinker, I can't stand the fixation of restaurants on Pepsi up there.

[Zack Baughman]

nobody goes to EAA for the food.

I've heard some people come from as far away as Colorado, just for the deviled eggs.