SNF vs Copperstate?

[brian]

Last year, my wife & I tried to fly from NH to Copperstate (VFR). We got as far as southwest Indiana, then got bogged down in bad weather & burned up a few of our allocated days there, until we ended up spending a couple more days dodging weather getting back to NH. We'd hoped to try it again this year, but now I'm realizing that, to allocate a full 2 weeks of vacation this time to make it there and back means I have to choose between our planned trip to AirVenture in a few weeks and going to Copperstate, especially since I already flew to SNF this spring.

So, my question is about Copperstate and how much effort it's going to be worth getting there. I realize it isn't going to compare to AirVenture Oshkosh, but I'm wondering how it'll compare to SNF, which I'm familiar with. How long does it take to see & do everything at Copperstate? My thinking is that, if I can see most everything at Copperstate in, say, one day, then that makes it less worth the large window of vacation time I'll need to allocate to get there & back VFR. But if I'll need all 3 days to see & do everything, that'll make it more worth it.

Can people give me some idea as to what to expect at Copperstate, especially as compared to SNF?

[Eric Page]

I've never been to Sun-N-Fun so I can't compare, but I live about an hour's drive from Casa Grande and have been to Copperstate a couple of times. The last time I went, I had breakfast at home, lunch at the show, and dinner on the way home. I didn't feel like I missed anything I wanted to see, and I attended a short intro to composites seminar.

Unless you want to attend a lot of seminars and need more than one day to do that, you can easily see what there is to see in one day; less if a particular section doesn't interest you. It's well run, but it's not a huge show. Judging from the magazine coverage of Sun-N-Fun, Copperstate is nowhere near its size.

[Bill Greenwood]

It has been a few years since I went to either, but I think Sun N Fun or Osh has a lot more to offer than Copperstate.
First, Phoenix is a hot, dry, polluted, and except for irrigation, mostly barren area. It is a big city, with all the ills, traffic and crime of big cites. Copperstate is not in Phoenix ,but nearby. Osh, is a nice green place, with with lakes and a river. Peopel might and do come there to vacation even without airplanes. Lakeland is less so, but still not a dusty and barren as Az.
Of coures. both Sun N Fun and Osh are week long conventions, big and bigger, (maybe too big ?) and with much to see and do.
Years ago , when Carl Schmieder was involved, the predcesser of Copperstate had a good number of warbirds, and I enjoyed it a few years.
After Carl passed it changed . I was told by the director that if I brought a warbird to what was then Copperstate, that there was not a parking space for me, much less any reimbursement of free room or fuel. I got the hint.
From what I hear of Copperstate now, it has pretty much been taken over by the tight flight suit crowd, and is mostly for pay acro types.
That is my impression, haven't been back in years. There are a number of other places that seem a lot more welcoming.

By the way, advocates of Phoenix like to say , "but it's a dry heat". Sure, but it's dry in my microwave also and it will sure cook anything in there. 110 degreees is hot as hello, no matter wet or dry.

I can't fathoom why anyonen the northeast would fly all the way to Az. There is a great show, weather allowing, in a nice greeen place at Geneseo, N. Y. But then again it won't "e dry heat".

There is one attraction near Phoenix, major glider flying near there at AZ Soaring at Estrella, really good school or at least is was years ago when I was there.

[Bill]

First of all, I have to agree that Phoenix is the most despicable part of Arizona. At night, you can see the Phoenix light pollution dome from anywhere in the state of Arizona.

However, Casa Grande is a small city (population 50,000) located 50 miles South of Phoenix so most of the ills of Phoenix, but not all, haven't permeated Casa Grande yet. Since CopperState is now held at the end of October (October 25th through the 27th this year), temperatures are far more moderate that Bill Greenwood alluded to. Last year at CopperState, the highs were in the mid 80s and lows in the mid 60s, so its really quite comfortable (Casa Grande doesn't have all of the concrete that in Phoenix holds the daytime heat and releases it at night).

Since moving to Casa Grande, CopperState no longer resembles Bill Greenwood's recollections. Now, warbirds are welcome with CAFs B-17 showing up most years. There is no formal airshow so you can arrive and leave when you like. At most, they let the Yaks, AT-6s, Stearmans and the occasional P-51 do a low pass or two when they feel so inclinded. CopperState gets a good number of experimental, vintage and antique aircraft along with whatever people fly to come and see the show. Its probably more like the EAA Conventions that were held in Rockford and certainly no match for SNF or Oshkosh. And, yes, you can see it in one day. I have an hour and 1/2 drive to get there; if I leave at 8 AM, I can see everything, take in a forum or two, and be back home at 8 PM.

[Joe Delene]

Flying from NH to AZ for the Copperstate fly-in would take some dedication. If it was me I would allocate my time & flying $$$ somewhere else, unless you had other activities along the way. Nothing against going, just seems like more bang for your aviation buck is available closer to home.

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat". The idea that you can go to PHX and then some farther south and be cooler sounds dubious to me.

Now, maybe just maybe, in Oct a cold wave comes through and it gets below 90, at least at night, but I have flown gliders near there , spring and fall, and the only time I recall it not being hot was when there was a flash flood.

The year that I was informally deinvited to Copperstate,the explanation was that they didn't have any more money as most of what they had was going to a local guy who was said to be a big star in the for pay acro world. I don't recall his name, but I'd barely heard of him then and don't think he has become world champion yet, as far as I know. But he sure did have good P R.

When Carl was part of the staff, we had some really good times there, on and off the flying part, and there were some real veterans that were famous beyond the range of their own mirrors. I recall one night talking at lenght with a member of the "Black Sheep" Corsair pilots.

There are some nice folks at the CAF base at Mesa, Falcon Field, and Chandler is a nice airport. I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

[FloridaJohn]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat".

I don't live anywhere near there, but it is safe to say that the temperature at the end of June has very little in common with the temperature at the end of October. According to the almanac at weatherunderground.com, the average high temperature for October 25 (the start date of the fly-in this year) is 78 degrees F, and the average low temperature is 51 degrees F. The record high for that date is 91 degrees, and the record low is 44 degrees. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

[Bill]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat". The idea that you can go to PHX and then some farther south and be cooler sounds dubious to me.

Now, maybe just maybe, in Oct a cold wave comes through and it gets below 90, at least at night, but I have flown gliders near there , spring and fall, and the only time I recall it not being hot was when there was a flash flood.

There are some nice folks at the CAF base at Mesa, Falcon Field, and Chandler is a nice airport. I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

The temperatures I gave were the actual recorded temperature ranges during CopperState last year when it didn't get above 90 during the day and fell into the 60s at night. That's one of the reasons that they moved the dates to the end of October. Previously, CopperState was held in early October when the temperatures do get get well into the 90s and did discourage attendance. Phoenix stays hotter because it modifies the local climate, but also starts cooling (a relative term) off in October.

As for the local sheriff, what else would you expect from Phoenix and Maricopa County? Fortunately, Casa Grande is in Pinal County, whose sheriff has his own peculiarities.

[Eric Page]

First, Phoenix is a hot, dry, polluted, and except for irrigation, mostly barren area. It is a big city, with all the ills, traffic and crime of big cites.

Largely true, though what it has to do with Casa Grande, apart from being hot and dry, escapes me.

There is one attraction near Phoenix, major glider flying near there at AZ Soaring at Estrella, really good school or at least is was years ago when I was there.

Arizona Soaring is still in business. I got a commercial add-on there a few years ago. Great people, good training, reasonable prices, and -- dare I say it -- weather that's conducive to training almost every day. It's about equidistant between Phoenix and Casa Grande, just west of Maricopa [map].

I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

Go, Joe!!


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Brian, if you're interested in a trans-continental cross country to attend a good airshow next year, you should think about the Arlington Fly-In and Sport Aviation Convention at Arlington, WA (KAWO). It's not affiliated with EAA anymore, but it's still a great medium size show. Bigger than Copperstate, smaller than SNF or AVOSH. Plenty of aircraft of all types, and the weather in the Pacific NW this time of the year is usually glorious.

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, Mr. Florida or Mr. John, no last name, you have certainly found me out. I thought that "gravy train" that i had going at the old Copperstate fly in would just last forever, and I'd continue to get rich off it. Nothing boost ones income more than getting a free parking space just for bringing a plane to a fly in.

Now it might surprise you to know that the airshow or flyin might not be paying me just because I am so young, tall, dark, handsome, wise, and charming, although of course I am all those and more so.

It might just have something to do with the reputation and the popularity of the vintage and historic plane that I would be bringing to the show. It might not be your cup of tea, but the plane did win "PEOPLE'S CHOICE" at SUN N Fun which is kind of like 3rd place for best of show. Also won some 1st and 2nd place awards at other smaller EAA shows, like Longmont , Greeley and Steamboat., here in Colorado, as well as some feature stories in Flying and other magazines.

I was giving you credit for being familiar with normal practices in airhows and/or flyins. Perhaps that is not the case, maybe you are new to this or not in that side of aviation, hard to tell about someone when they write under an alias. So, back to some basics.

There are 3 kinds of people that often if not usually get invited and reimbursed to attend an event:
1. Celebrities like maybe Sully and Skiles, or Pappy Boyington or Bob Hoover, or some such famous person, maybe even Harrison Ford.
That certainly is not me.
2. People whose flying ability or performance will entertain or draw a crowd. This includes the many for pay full time aerobatic acts among others, like John Mohr who I think is well worth an appearance fee.
Mostly that is not me, though I have done a few entertainment type flights in a few planes that I was rated in, when the owner needed a pilot.. By no means is it my full time job, nor would I want it to be even if I was at that level. I have never claimed to be the next great star of aviation, and I don't even have a tight flight suit with lot's of sponsor patches, and I don't have a P R agent.
3. People who are invited because of the popular plane they are associated with and can bring to the show. Example it was mentioned the CAF B-17 might come.
It is common practice, at many, though not all, shows to provide some items expense free for these categories, especially no. 3
Now, if you or the folks at Casa Grande can get the B-17 to operate for free, at their own expense,then that is a pretty good sales job.
Let's say you are Nellis Air Force Base, and it is a big anniversary. You want some vintage planes to fill out the show for those to whom just modern noisy smelly jets are not the end all. You want a P-47 to honor the pilot lost in the war who the base is named after and the plane he flew. So you call around and find one in Texas, one in California. The owner and pilot would like to come. Their flight expense is perhaps a minimum of $1800 per hour. So if you have funding you offer $5k or so for the hour or two flight, and this is often negotiable. Either way, it is common, almost always done, that the show will of course provide free rooms, hopefully at a good hotel, some free meals, often a fun group meal and maybe a free rental car, and a fuel allotment, perhaps 200 gal or whatever is expected to be used in the show.
Some shows are of course, smaller and have less money, but almost always they provide room, some food, and show fuel.
In 30 years or so of being a pilot in airshows and aviation events, as well as part of the staff that put on about 10 popular and successful shows, there would be only one or two that I ever heard tell a pilot who wanted to bring a show plane that they didn't even have a parking space for the plane.

You mention that you have to pay when you go to a show. Do you fit in any of the 3 categories above that often get paid to attend?
This year at Osh, I won't be in any of the categories and will be paying for my own expenses.

I hope Casa Grande has a good s SAFEhow and/or fly in. I'd like to check it out, on my own pay of course, but the idea of the 44 degree weather kind of worries me, two of my vintage planes don't have heaters.