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Thread: "May I see your licence Mr. Examiner?"

  1. #11
    crusty old aviator's Avatar
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    Years back, when the FAA was jerking Bob Hoover around, I flew in to SBA with a friend in his homebuilt. While he was in the FBO paying the fuel bill, some Fed wondered up and tried to conduct a ramp check. I asked, "you're with the FAA, and you admit it? You must be a low-life scumbag, working for an agency that is no longer legitimate, due to their tyranical persecution of Bob Hoover, just because one of their fat employees, who had openly bragged that he hated skinny people and was going to 'bring Bob Hoover down,' claimed he was flying his airshow routine eratically, though he could produce no coraborating witnesses. Ya know, I get so angry just thinking about it, I don't know what's keeping me from punching you out right here and now? Nobody would care. You're lower in society than lawyers now. You must be as bad as that fat guy, or you would have resigned out of protest by now." He backed away from me across the ramp and said some reassuring words in an attempt to calm me down, then disappeared behind a gaggle of GA planes in the tie down area. My friend returned from the FBO and away we flew. He would have passed a ramp check okay, but I wanted to let this guy know that we were not pleased with the FAA's shenanigans. I encountered another Fed about to perform ramp checks at the Camarillo Flyin in '97. I told him that was a really dumb idea and went against a memo that was sent out by the FAA Administrator, due to the bad PR it creates. When he said he had a job to do, I told him he should do it on Monday, because if he tried to do it on Saturday, he might not live to see Monday. The Sherrif's deputy that was standing beside him agreed with me, and he walked back to his car. Never be afraid to question authority, or you will end up being afraid of authority. That's what happened in Germany in the 30's. I wonder whatever happened to that fat guy. The FAA should have gone after him and all those bureaucrats in the FAA who backed him up, but they protect their own.

  2. #12

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    I think you deserved a fat lip for talking to anyone that way. In a just society you'd of been knocked on your ass for being a jerk of the highest level.

    Everyone in your line of work is a saint, right? If someone else screws up in your profession it justifies you being castigated and insulted, right?

    Where checking authority of examiners is important is Sport Pilots. We had a fellow relay how they pulled his SP ticket because he was signed off by a guy who was authorized for PPL's, but not SP and the pilot then had to get another check ride with a qualified examiner.
    Last edited by Frank Giger; 06-22-2012 at 11:03 AM.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  3. #13
    rosiejerryrosie's Avatar
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    One of the dangerous attitudes which lead to accidents is "Disregard for Authority".
    Wonder if this qualifies.....
    Cheers,
    Jerry

    NC22375
    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusty old aviator View Post
    ....
    Hey crusty, you ROCK! I'll buy you lunch if out paths ever cross......we could have fun swapping stories!

  5. #15
    Cary's Avatar
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    I'm not against authority--I just want to make sure it is really authority. That means that a DE has to have the authority to conduct the flight test, and I see nothing wrong at all with asking him/her to prove that authority. Would you want to go through a complete flight test, only to have it nullified because the DE wasn't authorized? And I'll be danged if anyone not authorized to do so will examine my or my airplane's credentials, just because he/she asks to do it.

    Cary
    "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...,
    put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

  6. #16

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    Cary, in the U S at least, as for as I know how the process goes, when the instructor has the student ready for the flight test in order to get a license or rating, they phone the FAA and make an appointment for the flight test. It is notl like in the days after a wind storm or hail storm when there is a knock at your door, an unmarked pickup truck in the driveway, and someone who is a total stranger claims to be a "contractor" and offers cut rate repairs right then.

    The examiner doesn't just show up out of nowhere, and hope to convince someone to let him do a flght test. And if it is a normal flght school, most likely they have had other students take a test and may be familar with the examiner in that area.

    You, of course have the option of telling your student to ask the examiner to see his credentials. But are you really doing anyone, least of all your student, a favor by taking that approach with the examiner?
    The examiner then, of course, will have the option of checking every detail that makes the test airplane legal to fly. Do you think if he examines it and the log books long enough, he might find some flaw, perhaps the software in the gps out of date, or an old 337 not quite riight?

    And if the plane passes muster, the examiner is free to ask virtually any question involved in the rating. Do you think if he persists for 4 or 5 hours he might find some areas that the student is not perfect on, some FAR that he doesn't know verbatim, or some detail left out of a cross country or ifr flight plan, or weight and balance?

    And then after the 4 or 5 hour oral part, do you think the student will fly his best? Let's say about a 3 or 4 hour flight test, do you think the instructor can find some manuever that the student is not perfect on? Perhaps he does not ALWAYS hold heading within 5 degrees briefly or aliltude within 100 feet or airspeed within 5 knots especially if it is now the middle of a hot windy afternoon when they do the test?

    Do you really think it is a good idea to give the examiner a motivation to fail your student? Of course the examiner may be a bigger person and be perfectly fair to your student, even after you or the student have in essence questioned the examiiners honesty.But examiners are human too, ( at least in theory) and politeness or the lack of it works both ways.

    And have you personally ever seen an examiner from the FAA show up for an appointment that was not qualified to sign off the student? Or one who did the fight test and then was found not legal after the sign off?
    I have only been flying 30 years, but I have never actually SEEN such a thing, as apart from tales at Happy Hour.

    The idea of a ramp check is a separate matter. But if you refuse to show the planes documents, can the FAA man then ground the plane on the spot?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 06-23-2012 at 12:33 PM.

  7. #17
    CarlOrton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    *snip*
    The examiner then, of course, will have the option of checking every detail that makes the test airplane legal to fly. Do you think if he examines it and the log books long enough, he might find some flaw, perhaps the software in the gps out of date, or an old 337 not quite riight?
    Bill:

    I remember back in the late 70's, the NYC police dept was having labor contract problems with the city. Since they couldn't go out on strike, they declared that nothing illegal would be done, but EVERYTHING would be done BY THE BOOK. They (and everyone else) KNEW that the city would grind to a halt very quickly...

    That made a lasting impression on my young mind, and I'll always think about that when faced with similar circumstances.

    Carl Orton
    Sonex #1170 / Zenith 750 Cruzer
    http://mykitlog.com/corton

  8. #18
    rosiejerryrosie's Avatar
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    Marty, remind me to never fly with you or crusty....
    Cheers,
    Jerry

    NC22375
    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  9. #19
    Cary's Avatar
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    I think the more common practice is not to call the FAA, but to call a known DE directly. Perhaps a call to the FAA first to see who is on the current DE roster might be the best thing. But certainly in some way or another, I'd want to know that the DE was authorized to give the ride. I doubt in most instances that it's a problem.

    Cary
    "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...,
    put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

  10. #20

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    Cary, on another subject, how is the smoke in Ft. Collins? I flew over Corona Pass last eve and you can really see the plume, also the one west of Pikes Peak. We need rain!!!!

    It seems to me you are picking a pretty small item, with the difference between the FAA employee and a Designated Examiner. How does one get on the D E list? The FAA had to approve the D E and put them on the list. Is it likely at all that someone unqualified is going to get on the list, and go out to the flight school or student and claim he can do the flight test when he legally can't. Maybe that happened once, but I think that is highly unlikely. It may have happened once, especially if there is some complex or unusual airplane involved, but I sure don't think that is a reason to in effect, acting like the D E is dishonest. If you have any doubt about the DE, if he is new to that position or area, then maybe a phone call to the FAA to verify the qualification is the way to do it.
    And in the event that the DE gave a flight test and charged a fee for it, and then it came to find out that the DE was not qualified , the student could certainly ask for his fee back. If the DE did not refund it , there would certainly be grounds for a suit that what the D E did was faudulent.

    I still think, in the first story that started this topic, if it is indeed true, that there was likely a personal or economic conflict between the CFI and examiner.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 06-24-2012 at 01:34 PM.

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