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Thread: I'm confused about the maintenance and annuals on an experimental I purchase.

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post

    A ready-to-fly SLSA version of the CH601HD is sold by Aircraft Design and Manufacturing.

    Great explanation Ron but the airplane sold by AMD is a 601XL, not sure I would say it's an SLSA version of the 601HD. There are quite different, the wings for example have nothing in common. The 601XL is the subject of an FAA SAIB and a lot of bad press with wing and/or flutter issues. The 601HD has an excellent service history as a homebuilt only airplane.

  2. #12

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    For a homebuilt (E-AB), it is possible to buy a project that has been assembled by other amateurs builders. Then the buyer (final builder) could complete the final 5% and register the aircraft as the builder and apply for a repairman certificate. He must also provide proof that the previous owner/builders did a total of 51% or more.

    That's my take from EAA forum discussions.

  3. #13

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    Thumbs Up

    Thanks for breaking it all down for me, rwanttaja. We need an "evangelical" emoticon, because alas, brother, I see the light.(no pun intended...really.)


    I'm not even sure Zenith sells the 601HD kit any more. What I know so far is that it's a good looking plane with great visibility and and advertised useful load that would accomodate me and occasionally my largest son, a 6'1" 220lb 14 year old. If he can fit, any of my friends and family can.

    I spoke to a gentleman at Warrenton Fauquier Airport(HWY) who had built a Pulsar. Beautiful plane, but super small cockpit. I also met a Sonex owner, took a peek and concluded there is NO WAY I could fit in one of those either. The 601HD seems larger by comparison and hopefully would accomodate me and my kid or at least me. My mission is 99% solo so maybe the Zodiac I can own and fly Sport Pilot and if I qualify medically to pursue my PPL, I can rent larger planes after I'm certified to fly them.

    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    It's due to a problem with FAA terminology, where they use the same phrase for a definition as the certification category.

    If you look in 14CFR Part 1, you'll see "Light Sport Aircraft" defined:

    Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

    (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—

    (i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or
    (ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

    (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
    (3)...

    The definition goes on with a total of thirteen defining characteristics of a Light Sport Airplane. This diagram sums it up:
    Attachment 2047


    What you won't see in there is ANYTHING related to certification, who can work on them, etc. That's because the "Light Sport Aircraft" is used to determine what a Sport Pilot is allowed to fly. ANY airplane, regardless of certification, meeting the Light Sport definition can be flown by a Sport Pilot.

    At the same time, the FAA instituted two new certification classes in the Special category: Special Light Sport Aircraft (SLSA) and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (ELSA). These aircraft meet the Part 1 LSA definition; in addition, they are designed and constructed in accordance with an Industry standard.

    To gain certification as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft, the manufacturer has to build an example of the airplane and prove that it complies with the requirements for Special Light Sport Aircraft. Once that is accomplished, the manufacturer can either sell the airplane ready-to-fly (Special Light Sport) or as a builder-assembled kit (Experimental Light Sport). The ELSA aircraft differ from the Experimental Amateur-Built category in that there is no "51%" rule. The seller of an ELSA kit can sell it at any level of completion.

    The big difference is that the builder of an ELSA is not allowed to make any deviations in the construction of the aircraft... if the original manufacturer used a Rotax 912, the builder must also use a Rotax 912 of the identical model. If the kit manufacturer installed an ICOM A200 radio, the ELSA builder must ALSO install an ICOM A200... and not add anything, either.

    Now, once the builder's ELSA is signed off by the FAA, that airplane is officially in the Experimental category, and the owner can make any changes they desire. But it must totally comply with the original aircraft at the time of certification.

    OK, how does this affect the Zenith CH601HD?

    The Zenith airplanes are Experimental Amateur-Built kits only. They meet the Part 1 definition of Light Sport Aircraft, hence they can be flown by Sport Pilots. However, they are licensed as Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft, and hence examples must comply with the "51% rule".

    A ready-to-fly SLSA version of the CH601HD is sold by Aircraft Design and Manufacturing. As far as I know, an ELSA kit is not available. However, the owner of an SLSA can change it to the ELSA category if desired.

    The best example of how it all works is the Vans RV-12. Vans designed the RV-12 in accordance with the rules for SLSA, got one example approved, and now sells ELSA RV-12 kits. However, Vans *also* got the RV-12 kits approved under the 51% rule for Experimental Amateur-Built. If you buy an RV-12 kit, you can build it EITHER as ELSA or EX-AB.

    The difference?

    If ELSA, you cannot deviate from the construction manual for any reason. Once you get an airworthiness certificate, you can then make changes. You can do all the maintenance yourself, and can attend a 16-hour course that allows you to perform the annual inspections on any ELSA that you own. If you sell the RV-12, the new owner can take the same course and will then be approved to perform annuals on the aircraft he purchased. Or, anyone can hire an A&P or a person holding a Light Sport Maintenance rating to do the annual.

    If you build it as Experimental Amateur-Built, you can deviate from the plans all you want, and, like the ELSA, you can do all the maintenance yourself once completed. As the builder, you can apply for a Repairman Certificate that permits you to perform the annual condition inspection *on that aircraft alone*. If you sell the completed aircraft, the new owner cannot receive a Repairman Certificate...he or she must either have you do the annuals, or hire an A&P to do them.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Last edited by AviatorKeith; 06-10-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: spelling

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AviatorKeith View Post
    I'm not even sure Zenith sells the 601HD kit any more.
    Pretty sure they do if you are interested in building.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    Pretty sure they do if you are interested in building.

    They sell the updated version (CH650) as either a kit or plans built.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pshadwick View Post
    They sell the updated version (CH650) as either a kit or plans built.
    They still advertise the 601HD on the website, the price of the plans and kit are listed here...... http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html .....along with the $300 rudder kit. Is all this information obsolete?

  7. #17
    I've had a very hard time getting a conditional inspection done on my EAB. Is their a data base with all of the A&P mechanics by state or region so I could find one , my FBO wants to charge the same as a certified aircraft. $ 1200. To start, I've seen advertising for conditional inspections for as little as $ 400, just not around southdakota, any help, thanks

  8. #18

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    A&P's won't keep their address up to date so it's hard to find an accurate database. Best bet is ask around like at an EAA chapter.

  9. #19

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    I will note that A&P IA's have to keep their addresses more up to date as they have more of a connection to an FAA FSDO.

    $1200 is about a day and a half of shop time. You can cut that down by delivering to the mechanic an airplane that has all of the covers, failings, and cowlings removed, and then put them all back on yourself. Likely cut 4 -5 hours of shop time off the bill depending on how many screws are involved. Plus you get to look at everything before the mechanic so that you are less apt to be surprised by a neglected maintenance item that the mechanic points out. You can do all of the lube, brakes, and other typical owner maintenance instead of the mechanic and cut another hour or two off the bill for shop time. Most mechanics are happy to have you do all of the "monkey work", especially if it involves stretching down into the tailcone or laying on your back on top of the rudder pedals, looking up with a light in one hand, a can of lube in the other, with excess lube dripping on your face.

    And you want a mechanic who works on homebuilts regularly. Some mechanics with backgrounds working on mostly larger normal and transport category airplanes seem buffalo'ed by airplanes like RV's for which a service manual does not exist. Not sure why but we see it regularly.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeneyes2141 View Post
    I've had a very hard time getting a conditional inspection done on my EAB. Is their a data base with all of the A&P mechanics by state or region ...
    I found this:

    http://www.landings.com/_landings/pa.../certs-ap.html

    And did a search in my local area - found me, and a whole lot of other folks that I didn't know were here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greeneyes2141 View Post
    ... my FBO wants to charge the same as a certified aircraft. $ 1200. To start, I've seen advertising for conditional...
    It's a "Condition" inspection - not a "Conditional" inspection - it's not "conditional" on anything - you're checking the "condition" of the aircraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greeneyes2141 View Post
    inspections for as little as $ 400...
    Well, I generally work on canard composite aircraft (Varieze, Long-EZ, COZY, etc.) aircraft, and my Condition Inspection fee starts at $750, and that covers the first 10 hours of work. On more complex aircraft, such as a Berkut, the fee is $1150 to start, and covers the first 15 hours. My auto mechanics charge $80 - $110/hr., so I don't feel bad about charging folks $75/hr. to work on specialized aircraft. Rates will probably rise in 2015 :-).

    I will say this - I've seen people get a CI signoff for $150, and your quote of $400 is still pretty low - it implies a very low hourly rate, or very few hours. I find that even if the owner removes all the panels, cowls, etc. as has been recommended (and as I recommend) and does ALL the preventive maintenance and keeps the plane in great shape, it's at LEAST 8 - 10 hours to complete the inspection correctly, so I have no idea how an A&P can do an inspection on a whole plane in 2 -5 hours, unless it's a VERY simple aircraft.

    This is one of those "you get what you pay for" deals - if you just want a pencil whipping signoff, go for the cheapest price. If you actually want a good inspection, check with other folks in your area for an A&P who's knowledgeable about YOUR type of airplane - not just any A&P.

    My $0.02.

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