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Thread: Safety Study on E-AB - summary results & recommendations

  1. #11
    I 'guess' it's unfortunate to miss half of this thread due to my carefully applied ignore list, but then if I had to reply 3 times in a row, and to almost every thread on the forum - I'd hope people ignored me too....as they already may! BUT...

    It would be interesting to see how these accident stats compare to those of the Cirrus. Don't hear much bellyaching from them about those guys......

    I've thought, for a long time, that we are living on borrowed time in our Experimental world. It's hard to imagine a government that has historically creeped into more and more of our lives, with no reduction ever, would continue to let us enjoy the freedoms we have compared to the certified world. It just isn't possible that they would leave us alone (hence the excellent suggestions for us to police our own, for all the good that will do...).

    Oh well, another 10-15 yrs. and it won't matter to me but I'm sure sad to think of what we leave the next generations. Will probably resemble Europe and as screwed up as they are for GA. And to think we VOTE for this stuff (yes, in effect, we really do).

    But....whadoIknow.........................
    Last edited by flyingriki; 05-24-2012 at 07:23 PM.

  2. #12
    rosiejerryrosie's Avatar
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    Ya' know - there's one thing about regulations.....you have to enforce them! They don't have enough folks to enforce the current regs - how are they gonna keep up with any new ones? How many of you have ever been ramp checked? Now I'm not recommending ignoring regs, but it does happen. Just hope you don't chose to ignore those that DO make flying safer....
    I tend to come down on the side of training and education to make things safer than government mandates that are so easily ignored. I, personally, would be more likely to do something if I thought it was in my best interest than I would just because someone told me I had to do it.
    Cheers,
    Jerry

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    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  3. #13
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    Ya' know - there's one thing about regulations.....you have to enforce them! They don't have enough folks to enforce the current regs - how are they gonna keep up with any new ones?
    Exactly. There's a reason why they, as a general rule, only bother with major regulations when there is a significant body count associated with them (the whole "written in blood" rule of FAA regulation).
    Last edited by steveinindy; 05-25-2012 at 05:28 PM.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosiejerryrosie View Post
    Ya' know - there's one thing about regulations.....you have to enforce them! They don't have enough folks to enforce the current regs - how are they gonna keep up with any new ones?

    Say the FAA requires you to submit your POH and fuel flow tests for approval before you can begin Phase 2 flight testing (i.e. normal use of your airplane). Fine, you send them in.

    But the backlog for reviewing that stuff is 6 months long and you're stuck in Phase 1 flight test until they send your (approved) doc's back. Oh, and if they don't like what you sent, you get to revise it and send it back to wait in queue for another 6 months...

    That's the downside to these regulations.

    Fortunately, EX-AB's are not a big issue for anyone on the regulatory side (or from a public opinion standpoint) and the FAA probably doesn't feel much pressure to follow the NTSB's recommendations.

  5. #15
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    the FAA probably doesn't feel much pressure to follow the NTSB's recommendations.
    Bingo. More than likely, you're right. This should be seen as an opportunity for those in the community with a vested interest in keeping the FAA's foot out of our collective butts (read as: everyone) to get behind a "self-policing" measure to follow that recommendation. This is something the EAA could take under it's mantle and help to get back to a point where we are seen by more of the membership as focused on "homebuilders" (both the designer/craftsmen and the kit assemblers side of that group).
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rosiejerryrosie View Post
    Ya' know - there's one thing about regulations.....you have to enforce them! They don't have enough folks to enforce the current regs - how are they gonna keep up with any new ones? How many of you have ever been ramp checked? Now I'm not recommending ignoring regs, but it does happen. Just hope you don't chose to ignore those that DO make flying safer....
    I tend to come down on the side of training and education to make things safer than government mandates that are so easily ignored. I, personally, would be more likely to do something if I thought it was in my best interest than I would just because someone told me I had to do it.
    Excellent points Jerry.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
    ...the backlog for reviewing that stuff is 6 months long and you're stuck in Phase 1 flight test until they send your (approved) doc's back. Oh, and if they don't like what you sent, you get to revise it and send it back to wait in queue for another 6 months...
    concur, and that's what's wrong with most of the stuff NTSB recommended. including the requiement for a POH etc before RE-registration. this looks more like a federal jobs program than anything else. not just the registration etc paperwork. who's going to certify the schools to train thousands of test pilots? i mean, golly, this thing is gargantuan.

    on the positive side - Revise Federal Aviation Administration Order 8130.2G, and related guidance and regulations, as necessary, to clarify those circumstances in which a second qualified pilot could be authorized to assist in the performance of flight tests when specified in the flight test plan and Phase I operating limitations.

    YES! CLARIFY! a lot of folks, FAA included, don't realize the regs and ops limits allow for a second crewmember already, so clarifying that is a great idea.

    also positive - Develop and publish an advisory circular, or similar guidance, for the issuance of a Letter of Deviation Authority to conduct flight instruction in an experimental aircraft, to include sample documentation and exemplar training materials. Complete planned action to create a coalition of kit manufacturers, type clubs, and pilot and owner groups and (1) develop transition training resources and (2) identify and apply incentives to encourage both builders of experimental amateur built aircraft and purchasers of used experimental amateur-built aircraft to complete the training that is developed.

    YES! it should be stupid-simple, not an obstacle course.

  8. #18
    AcroGimp's Avatar
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    In reviewing the NTSB recommendations and the discussions here and elsewhere about the recommendations, I am curious what the impression is here as to what we are willing to pay for a professionally developed AFM/POH template we can fill out ourselves, or one where we receive assistance for a factory style manual.

    As a current Reliability/Maintainability/Safety Engineering Manager I found these specific recommendations to be something we as a community can rather easily act on if we are able to show there is a viable market to someone who can do the work.

    Seems we could develop a baseline template similar to those used by Beech/Cessna/Piper, that could then be easily 'filled-in' for the specific aircraft, and to the level of detail/completion desired by the Builder/Pilot.

    As a starting point, I am thinking something like the following, please feel free to comment or ask questions - really looking to guage interest level and acceptable price points:

    Option 1 - Base AFM/POH Template in MSWord - Builder/Pilot fills in all specifics to his/her aircraft and prints at home
    Option 2 - Pro AFM/POH - Builder/Pilot provides data and a pro tech writer completes with illustrations, etc., Builder/Pilot recieves the MSWord document as well as a professionally printed and bound manual

    What would you be willing to pay for a do-it-yourself but professional AFM/POH? How about a pro-developed AFM/POH?

    Thanks

    AcroGimp
    Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right.

    EAA Chapter 14, IAC Chapter 36

    http://acrogimp.wordpress.com/

  9. #19

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    As a starting point, I am thinking something like the following, please feel free to comment or ask questions - really looking to guage interest level and acceptable price points:

    Option 1 - Base AFM/POH Template in MSWord - Builder/Pilot fills in all specifics to his/her aircraft and prints at home
    Option 2 - Pro AFM/POH - Builder/Pilot provides data and a pro tech writer completes with illustrations, etc., Builder/Pilot recieves the MSWord document as well as a professionally printed and bound manual

    What would you be willing to pay for a do-it-yourself but professional AFM/POH? How about a pro-developed AFM/POH?
    Can I get option 2a, where I complete the template at home, return it, and have it professionally printed and bound?

    For my plane most of the stuff on other planes don't apply - no flaps, ground trim only, no autopilot, hand held radio, tube and fabric, etc, so I'd have to redact quite a bit from the standard template and then add a few things in. And include my own drawings/photos.

    I'd be in for 10-20 bucks for the standard print-at-home POH and forty or fifty for the printed version, if it was of high quality.

    I'd be scared to death of the price of having a tech writer do the work for me with illustrations for my unique homebuilt, as they'd have to come see it.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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