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Thread: Norm's Flying Boat UL Flight Test Progress

  1. #11

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    I looked for a picture that represents the plane .best I have is what was tested on the first run. the sponsons have since been turned around and the angle of incidenceName:  The Finished Airplane 002.jpg
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Size:  94.1 KB was changed to 6 degree with a spacer on this last run.
    The angle I refer to is the hull plane verses the wing

  2. #12
    Dana's Avatar
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    At a glance (hard to tell from these pictures), I suspect you may have inadequate vertical tail area. Also it looks like the tail is outside the prop wash, further limiting control at low airspeed.

    Is there a water rudder?

  3. #13

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    Dana
    There is not a typical water rudder. There is an experimental system there as built ,that steers the plane at low speed. I lock it straight during any high speed taxi attempt. It is the sponson float system they pivot with the controls can lock in or lock out.
    The v-tail was always an unknown especially to me with no experience. I expect you are right on there .
    I plan to replace the tail with the standard vertical and horizontal. The only consideration is a middle or high stabilator. Raising the horizontal will resolve my wet tail concerns. (that being when the pilot is absent the tail rides low enough to be in the water] the main reason for the odd sponson floats is support for the engine weight if the pilot exits with the plane in deep water. The V-tail takes on water if I let it go on to long.

    The bottom line is I now believe the V-tail is a bad Idea for this short arm pusher. There is obviously insufficient area and the arm is to short. If this was a tractor engine things may be different.
    A new float support system and new floats are being made .They should resolve much of the in water behavior.
    The air frame will be modified slightly to accommodate the more reasonable angle of incidence of 5 or 6 degrees hull to wing. Lastly the new Tail.. there maybe another test run before the tail is replaced .But I am sure it is the reason for lack of ruder control and the right turn slip. That I believe is P factor ( more throttle = more severe right turn slip) this plane has a 68 inch prop . I know when I was up on plane I was slipping sideways over the water and turning to the right.
    I thought it was odd since I didn't think I was flying But I was skipping sideways on the water the wing must have achieved G E flying speed. Every time I took the plane up to this speed there was virtually no ruder. I was able to keep it straight a bit longer using reverse aileron. But this proved dangerious when the plane rolls to the opposite of the turn. And added power made the effort feeble with immediate turn response.

    Sorry I ramble on so.
    Norm

  4. #14

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    Nice looking little amphibian there. Too bad the V tail isn't working out, they always look nice.
    If I might be so bold as to suggest looking at existing seaplanes for workable ideas. The SeaHawker design uses sponsons on both sides of the hull to provide lateral support when in the water and to help keep spray out of the prop. Perhaps a small float at the far aft end of the tail boom would keep the new tail out of the water when the pilot is not aboard and provide a location for a water rudder. It appears that (1) much more (air) rudder area is needed, (2) in the prop wash for low speed control and (3) elevators in the prop wash to allow low speed pitch attitude control. It looked in the video like the primary pitch control was power rather than the elevators. Take to look at the Lake Amphibian. It has a cruciform tail (horizontal stab in the prop wash) and the elevators are split to provide really huge trim surfaces at each end of the horizontal stab that are controlled separately from the normal elevators. Sort of secondary elevators controlled by the pitch trim control in the cockpit. Best wishes and good luck !

  5. #15

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    Tom thank you
    A new float system has been fabricated. No trials were performed yet. As the season ended and the changes were worked out. The transport trailer needed a revision to accommodate the new configuration of the dolly that conveys the plane to the water.All those watching my progress will have to wait for early summer maybe in May.

    I want to make a note to all there is something maybe significant in the works. That make up wings and control surfaces typically for use in Ultralights.


    I need to put my new tail together before I toot this horn
    For now here is a picture of the new float system. It was finished for testing but not for looks should they need alterations.They were created VIA suggestion of My mentor here in the forums. I do pay attention and ponder all suggestions. If I deem it practical to deviate and rework I will. Being an Ultralight I have the weight factor to consider.

    My current portion of the project is the new tail. The V-tail weighed 6# and that was before covering and the root area connection plus control hardware. I would guess finishing at or near 8# I will confirm this sometime after I tare it all of and add the new tail. This new tail A mid tail stabilator . I have found a new way of using my channel to create structural rather than just airfoil members making the whole tail only about 10# vertical and horizontal. I am anxious to say the least and this is premature. Next week I will have my stabilator partially assembled and something to show. The picture was before sanding fiberglass was applied
    Name:  The Finished Airplane 007.jpg
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    Regards to all

  6. #16

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    Hi Norm,
    Just wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work. It excites me to see other real "EXPERIMENTERS", that are willing to show/share what they are working on. I've been following your threads with keen interest; even though I am not much of a float guy -just happy to learn from what you have learned and shared. -Zach

  7. #17

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    A New style of rib construction

    I promised some pictures of what I was working on. A completely new way of making U/L ribs. I believe at least not done this way before.
    I have been slow because of the extensive tooling.
    What I have here is a stabilator and the vertical fin plus the ruder foam cores. Still yet to fab its rib channels.[special bender required] I also have no leading edge material its on order.
    Laid out on the floor just to express the general idea.


    The stabilator is a lift generating airfoil with a center bearing it is actually 2 pieces . Will be mounted mid way up the fin
    The fin ribs will have porting done to allow for the control rod .
    Looking at this you will assume its all heavy. you are deceiving yourselves if you think so the largest of the ribs having a 36 inch chord weighs 4 oz.the spar tubes are .035 1.75" and the fin is .035 X 2" ruder spar is .035 X 1.75

    What you see is foam encapsulated by a full perimeter .035 channel splayed then compressed over the foam. each rib becomes complimented by combined materials character . The rib becomes like a stress skin panel in the vertical. Light and more structural than the usual U/L . I use them to reduce structure and end up light typically a single spar tube ,LE an TE.
    I have very pleasing numbers so far.The V-tail when weighed all components was every bit of 10# I expect to be very near the same. with far more control surface.Name:  new rib style 007.jpg
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  8. #18

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    Ok I guess I need to start begging for feed back. I really need to know what you all think of this process .
    Has anyone seen any thing like this?. do you need more info?
    I'm not the teacher here I am a student . So I can make stuff help me know its worth doing.
    I have only a very few real people to talk with and show it to, that even have a clue about airplanes. They like it but that is only 4 people
    Regards to all Norm
    If you need to e-mail Me at pjlucky@metrocast.net
    Last edited by Norman Langlois; 12-12-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  9. #19
    Dana's Avatar
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    Norm, others have done foam ribs with aluminum cap strips... I'm planning something similar for the ultralight biplane design I'm working on. Some of this has been discussed over on homebuiltairplanes.com.

  10. #20

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    The new tail

    Finally the new tail is partially complete . Enough to show anyway. I still need to turn some hardware . After that I can cover. It will be ready for the spring.
    Some may wounder why the inverted stabilator . I can only tell you I have had discussions with good authority,I am not qualified to debate it.
    Generally you are seeing a fin, ruder and stabilator with lift generation airfoil in the lift down configuration. It will be reversible if need be.

    The weight I wish was better but I am not displeased entirely. I expect 15# after covering.That includes all hardware and controls. brake down is like this each stabilator Half Name:  tail2.jpg
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Size:  92.0 KBis 3#4oz. the ruder is 2# and the fin with interface hardware and control horn 5#4oz. That is as you see it.

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