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Thread: What was good and bad about OSH2011...

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    27

    What was good and bad about OSH2011...

    We - myself, my wife, and our kids aged 5 and 7 - had another great time this year, camping as we usually do in the North 40, from Wednesday through Sunday. I recall after last year's event, reading a thread talking about what people liked and didn't about the way the show went, and I learned a lot from that thread about how things are run behind the scenes, which helped my perspective of the issues a lot, so I thought I would post something similar this year. Hopefully others can add their own experiences as well.

    First, the "good":

    • The volunteers and even most other show attendees were EXTREMELY friendly and helpful this year. We came in right after the big storm Wednesday morning and got stuck in the mud taxiing to a camping spot in the N40. Many people, both official volunteers and just other attendees, came to help me dig in the mud to get my wheel pants off, some other volunteers drove up with ramps, and we got my plane unstuck within an hour or so.
    • My daughter came running around the tent and ran right into the elevator, giving herself a gash and big welt just over her eye. Again, the volunteers were great with getting a cold pack and even giving us a ride direct to the first aid center, where she was seen by a doctor, immediately, for free. Wish my own doctor's office would be so quick and friendly. Many other examples this year. Maybe just not having another "Sloshkosh" put people in a good mood, but it was just great this year.
    • We just had a great time, and are already looking forward to next year. Oshkosh really is a highlight of our summer and I just want to emphasize how much we love it, so that my suggestions below can be taken in the right context - as things that just might be tweaked to help improve what is already a great experience.

    Now, the "bad" - or perhaps the "could be improved":

    • Still would like more clarity on hours of operation of dining, trams, museum, etc. Some of this information is available in various places such as some versions of the maps (but not all!), the official guide, a paper "Dining Guide" available at some of the food concessions. But other information, like museum hours, seemed not available - we just happened to see a posted sign saying the museum closed at 3pm on Thursday, for example. And what's up with the "Pre/Post Tram Busing"? I guess buses take over the tram routes after the trams stop - but is this on all days? All tram lines? What hours? Similarly, I heard that the north 40 bus runs until midnight from some people, the map said it runs until 11:30, and a driver told me it runs later when the Fly-In Theater runs late. (We left before the end of Apollo 13 so that we would be sure to be able to catch a N40 bus since we were parked past the Hilton and didn't want to walk that far with the kids).

      The gist of this paragraph is simply: Could we have ONE location, preferably online, where we could see it before the show while planning our trip, that lists the hours of: all trams, all buses, each food concession, museum, exhibit hangars, etc.? That would be so helpful!
    • We noticed a lot more people than usual around the North 40 who weren't camping there. Normally it's not a huge deal but this time there were many people who were not quite suspicious enough to report or confront but just suspicious-looking enough to have us worried about the security of the campsite. There were tents set up in the middle of nowhere, without an airplane to be seen, people milling around, etc.
    • A related problem was the LARGE number of people parking/camping outside the N40 gates but who used the shower houses and buses. For example, after Sat night's airshow, there were probably 300 people waiting for a North 40 bus. When we finally got on a bus (standing room only), all but 5 people - literally, not exaggerating - got off at the Hardee's or Friar Tuck's gate and walked out. I'm sure some were campers who wanted a late night snack/drink but the vast majority of people were obviously just parked outside the gates and using the North 40 transportation to get to their vehicles and avoid the parking fee.

      I don't want to be snobbish or exclusive, but I do wonder if there is some way to slightly clamp down on who can be coming and going through the campsites?
    • Tram rules. Need some consistency here. Because we have two young ones, we do use the trams quite a bit. Once we missed our stop on the yellow tram (I thought there was one more stop and was wrong), and when we got to the end of the line in Vintage, the tram volunteer said we had to get off - we couldn't stay on to ride back the other way. Okay, no problem; we got off and waited in line again. But the next several trams that came had different volunteers who did NOT force everyone off. So it took a while to get back on. I don't mind that we had to get off (it was my fault we missed the stop after all), but if that's the rule, then please enforce it across the board. And if that's not the rule, then don't enforce it!
    • Similarly, when the trams were crowded, we had some volunteers asking people to put kids on laps to make more room - no problem, we were happy to do so. Later in the week, on another crowded tram, we put the kids on our laps to help make room but this time, we were told that kids could not be on laps. Of course, there were no more seats by then, so we had to get off the tram just because we were trying to be helpful by putting the kids on our laps. Again, consistency would help here.
    • Finally, we had a hard time leaving Sunday morning. I realize it's a busy time, and I'm very happy to wait my turn. But we waited between 45 minutes to an hour in a line of over 30 planes (I could count 30, there may have been more) heading toward rwy 27 from the N40. At the head of the line, whenever planes would taxi from the FBO ramp, they got priority and went ahead of the line. ATC would typically launch 5-6 planes from the south side of 27, during which time perhaps 4 or 5 planes would start up at Basler/Orion and taxi up. When ATC got around to the north side of 27, those 4-5 planes which just started up would be flagged into place by the EAA flag person, and the 30 planes waiting on the grass taxiway would not move.

      I saw another post about this or a similar issue, but contrary to that poster, what I saw didn't correspond to "high dollar" planes getting priority. I saw several "normal" singles and twins (Cessnas, Mooneys, etc.) start up at the FBO and just taxi straight out. I also saw one C210 who got fed up with the line and taxi from perhaps 10 spots behind me, through the grass, to the FBO ramp - then since he looked like he was coming from the FBO, the EAA flagman waved him ahead of the line, so he got to skip ahead by seeing what was happening. In the meantime, my oil temp was over 210 by the time I got to depart.

      IMHO, this was not due to malicious intent on the part of the flagman or anything else. I like to think he was just clueless that there was a line of 30+ airplanes waiting to go, but I'm not really sure what the problem was. Maybe they have instructions to keep the FBO ramp clear for incoming aircraft or something, so they always get priority?

      Along the same lines - in the past, ATC would put two departures next to each other (left half, right half of the runway). This year they were not doing that; not sure if that reduced departure capacity, or what the reasoning was for that - does anyone know?

    Again, I apologize for the long post, but it is obvious (to me at least) that EAA and all the volunteers do a great job with the event, and I really am posting these minor frustrations in the spirit of trying to help identify some possible places where a few tweaks might go a long way to making things even better than they already are!!

    Thanks for taking the time to read this book!

    Steve Lin

  2. #2
    One thing that could be improved is the provision of hand washing facilities at all the portaloos, especially those near food stands. These hand wash facilites need to be checked more frequently as often there was no water and / or paper towels. This was very obvious on the Saturday when people are on the grounds a lot longer than a 'normal' day.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    29
    "The Bad"
    My biggest complaint were the number of vehicles on the grounds. I was almost hit multiple times by either an suv, car, or golf carts. I understand that vehicles need to be used, but it seemed like everyone and their dog had a golf cart this year! Some vehicles you can tell are official and needed and some you can tell are just plain joyriders not wanting to walk or use the tram like everyone else. I did not realize how easy it was for someone to have a vehicle on the osh grounds.

    I would also like to see people be more considerate on the use of the tram. I missed 2 trams while standing in line because a huge group of people would jump off of the yellow tram and load on the wrong side of the red tram cutting in front of a lot of people who were already waiting in line! The EAA volunteer riding on the back never said a word both times.

    The food vendor lines seemed much longer and slower than previous years. We waited in line over 30min for a bottle of water. The whole time we waited I thought how nice it would be for mutiple "drink only" stations spread throughout the grounds. I am not sure why that isn't being done. Makes a whole lot of sense I think?? Also, does anyone from EAA know why they never opened the consession stand at the ultralight field? There was only 1 place half way close to our campsite in VAC row 101 to eat or get a drink, but it was always extremely busy and backed up with people with the normal 15-30min wait.

    Last complaint:
    Why do the people that fly their own airplane into oshkosh and park in vintage/showplane camping get the shaft on shower and bathroom facilities? We saw the brand new awesome facilities that the RV campers get and the fairly new showers up in the N40 but down south we get stuck with 1 FEMA trailer? Seriously? We can't even get 2 FEMA trailers? Our port-a-pottys were always out of TP and serviced maybe once the 5 days I attended. A poor pregnant lady went into one and came out in tears.

    "The Good"

    As always most of the volunteers were extremely nice and helpful especially the folks at point magoo (I think it is?) down south.

    ATC was great coming in and leaving

    Great line up of presenters and forums.

    The airshow was better than the last 2 years. Still to much of the extra 300 types flying over and over, but better than last year.

    I like that the volunteers were not so grumpy about the fire line when watching the airshow like previous years. Seemed to me anyway..

    And of course we had better weather than last year!!

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,575
    Slin, if you see my topic about Parking Problems from back on Tue; I and many others had exactly the same problem as you did when trying to fly out from the north 40 parking. A volunteer, "Fred" wrote his explanation, ie "safety" and it is for rwy 9 departure. Obviously most of what he wrote is, to put it politely, not true, and just the company line.
    Someone, "Janet" came on and did not refute anything I wrote, but only seem to oppose that I had the right to any concerns.
    The idea that departures should be in some fair manner like first come, first served doesn't seem available there, perhaps next year you can come back in a jet or at least a twin, and you'll go right to the head of the line.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    24
    The goods:

    - The people, everyone was as friendly as can be.
    - Variety of aircraft
    - Warbirds in review
    - Airshow performers

    The Bad:
    - Food prices, $4.50 for a little hot dog? Are you serious?
    - Water spickets, I'm not going to shell out over 2.50 for a bottle of water, not having more water spickets in a way is kind of cruel. Buy our water or else and with the way the heat was the or else part could have dire consequences
    - My biggest gripe at all is the umbrellas on the flightline. Enough is enough, during the storm on Saturday I saw more than one umbrella flying through the air. If I owned an airplane with a fabric covering I would be paranoid. Not only is there the risk for the airplanes but for those of us that are 3 rows back it is very hard to see what is going on on the runways. Some people almost had umbrellas the size of a patio set umbrella.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    10
    The Good:
    It's Airventure! Can't be bad!
    - Liked the upgrades to Camp Scholler,
    - Liked the Iphone App to help get around and know what is going on,
    - Liked the forum speakers this year!

    Opportunities:
    -Use 'trams' (the ones with the pull behind carts with seats - like the ones used INSIDE the fence) to get around Camp Scholler instead of buses. Takes too long to load/unload buses and would help with some of the traffic. PLUS you could probably get more folks on the trams AND it is easier for folks with kids and strollers.
    - Better Wi-Fi signal - it works but man is it spotty and slow on the grounds. KUDOS on having Wi-fi though! It helps folks stay in touch and read up on what is going on! Not complaining...just a suggestion
    -Not sure how to do this without a TON of cost, but Camp Scholler needs better drainage. This has been highlighted the past two years. When it rains it gets REALLY sloppy out there. It may take semi-paved roads to fix, but one can only dream. We had one car spin out in front of our tent. The guy spun his tires and flung mud on and in everyone's tents. Not pretty.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    19
    Tram complaints should be forwarded to the tram chairman. If you go to the airventure.org web page, one of the drop-down menues has a volunteer link, and from there, you should find the Phone # and email of the tram chairman. My experience was fine, even with the rain on Wednesday. The trams SHOULD be emptied at the end of the line, and they SHOULD enforce no-cutting or no-entry-from-other-side.

    The water spigots are there, but they are hard to find.
    The high food prices are pretty much expected with the "captive" audience, but come on, water should be free and easy to find.

    South 40 facilities. It's my understanding that They can't really build facilites there for a few reasons, such as plumbing, and proximity to the main runway. That's the rumour I've heard anyway.

    Wifi-lets be realistic. Several thousand people are using it. It's going to be slow, and poor connections at peak times. I imagine they might be able to put in more servers and increase bandwidth, but it's going to cost money.

    N40 "extra people". Did they have wristbands? They should have, to be able to get past the gate from the N40 to the grounds. You don't need a wristband on the N40 itself. If they had wristbands, then I don't see a problem, technically. yes, it's a pain for people who are camping in the N40 to wait for a bus. So unless the local business' complain about the parking, not much you can do but ask the powers that be about this.

    If "shifty" or "suspicous" people were grounds for ejection, 1/2 the pilots would be tossed out by the N40 volunteers.

    Hours need to be consistant, and posted in easy to find locations, that's for sure!

    I've address the umbrellas, and carts, in other topics.

    Incidently, there are people from the campgrounds right outside the EAA grounds who trespass to use the portapotties and showers in camp scholler too.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    11
    At about noon Sunday I was riding my bicycle on Shaick back to my
    campsite, with my 10 year old daughter on her own bicycle. We were
    riding at about 12mph (faster than 10, slower than 15, not sure exact
    speed). We were on the edge of the pavement, with more than one cars
    width of dirt to our right, and oncoming traffic heading for the
    airshow grounds, about at the EAA clearance merchandise sales
    building.

    A Gator with two young men passed us on the right, with a speed
    difference so great they had to have been going over 30mph, probably
    faster.

    A few seconds later another Gator passed us on the left, at about
    the same speed, crossing the center of the pavement, with oncoming
    traffic.

    I kind of expect stupid behavior from the young campers. I was
    furious that all three were wearing blue EAA Staff shirts. I rode to
    the security shack at the end of Shaick and talked with the two people
    there, who tried to get a manager type on the radio, and no one replied.

    I was hesitant to let my daughter ride her own bicycle this year in
    Scholler, precisely because of behavior like this. In previous years
    we used a tandem trailer-bicycle, attached to mine. This year she was
    solo.

    Next year, if I see EAA staff driving like this, I will tell my
    daughter to park her bicycle wherever she is and I will chase the
    idiots down and not stop making noise until they are ejected from
    Airventure, or I am ejected. I seriously doubt I would be the one
    going home early. The security guard I talked to was just about as
    furious as I was, she said they had been telling both staff and
    campers to slow down all week.

    I think a policy of ejecting the entire campsite registering to a
    cart/gator/motorcycle/scooter (anything with a motor) with well
    documented violations of policy (for instance, if multiple EAA
    security staff AND other campers all step forward as witnesses) is
    appropriate. When I roadraced motorcycles, it was made clear in the
    rider's meeting that any egregious violation of campsite policy by any
    person in that campsite would get the racer and all their guests
    ejected, with no appeal, at the discretion of the Race Director. I
    understand Airventure is a lot bigger than an amateur roadrace, but
    that that just means it's MORE important that everyone behaves.
    Currently, there seems to be no consequences for this kind of moving
    violation.

    I saw golf carts on sidewalks multiple times, many scooters, gators
    and golf carts driven by obviously underage riders, rampant speeding
    by all kinds of vehicles. Someone is going to get killed in Scholler
    because of this if you don't do something about it.

    A counterpoint to all this was that while I saw no one policing moving
    vehicles, I was accosted by a security person when I was locking my
    bicycle up. I guess a stationary bicycle in a drainage ditch well off
    any driven/walked path is a hazard, while idiots zooming around is
    just tolerated.

    Charles Tomes
    EAA 780854

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3

    Disapointment at the Kids Play Area

    The only bad experience that I <strong><u>ever</u></strong> had in 15+ years at OSH happened on Friday at the Childrens Activity Center. My 3 year old and 1+ year were playing at one of the play tables and my 1+ year old moved a play hangar from one side of the table to the other side of the table, not on the floor, not to another table,but the other side of the table. One of the staff (Carroll?) came over, moved the plastic hangar back to the original spot and demanded to know who said that my little guy could come in and play. She said that we needed to leave because he was too small to be there and she will have to talk to the people who said it was OK for him to enter. Now I understand if he was making a mess moving things to other tables or throwing things but he was doing what a kids do; PLAYING. My wife and I take pride in how our children act in public and make sure
    that they do not run wild, make messes for others to clean up, or cause
    problems. I really feel that if you can not comprehend that a child is going to move toys around a table in a PLAY AREA you have no business being in charge of the kids play area and you need to find some other place to volunteer. As we were leaving we had a short conversation with another parent who saw what happened and shared our thoughts on the matter. <br><br>I suppose there will always be one bad apple but the crappy attitude and crass comments are a big disappointment to me. This is not what this place is about and not a good way to promote the future of aviation and EAA. I hope that others who might have come to OSH for the first time did not have similar experiences and instead experience all the great friendly volunteers that make OSH such a great place to be.<br><br>To the other staff members at the Childrens Activity Center and everyone else Thanks for all that you do!!!!!

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    16

    Airventure improvement opportunities

    OK, so maybe a stupid question, but does anyone know why they host Airventure during the hottest, most humid part of the entire year?? I know it is probably more family-firendly to do it during summer break but, man, was it moist!

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