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Thread: Tora, Tora, Tora

  1. #61
    Lindberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Much more serious to me, is that the group that once meant the great combat airplanes of WW II now lets all sorts of diesel burning and nosewheel junk fly under their banner.
    Things like that happen when you become an organization that "caves in" to external pressure. It soon becomes a different organization. In this case CAF became a "slave" to politics. Sadly, this is what we have become.

    CAF is free to do what they want. We are still a free country, I think. No one forced me to buy my CAF t-shirt, but it still had Confederate Air Force on it. I don't need another.

  2. #62
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    Much more serious to me, is that the group that once meant the great combat airplanes of WW II now lets all sorts of diesel burning and nosewheel junk fly under their banner.
    I thought the purpose of CAF has always been to keep historic warbirds of all ilks in flyable condition? I heard as a child from one of the senior CAF guys (my dad was talking to him) that the only reason they didn't have any WWI aircraft from day one was because they couldn't find any originals that were flyable.

    I think it's rather insulting to the crews who flew....say the Linebacker missions over North Vietnam to call the B-52 (as an example...CAF doesn't have one but bear with me here; I can't think of any non-WWII birds I have seen under the CAF banner) a diesel burning piece of junk. There's not anything less interesting about the aircraft from later conflicts. They may not sound as cool but if one is truly of the "Keep 'em flying" mindset, it really shouldn't matter where the nosewheel is or what fuel the bird uses.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  3. #63
    I hate to propagate further thread drift, but I happen to know Bill personally - I think I can safely say his statement about "diesel burning and nosewheel junk" was meant to be tongue in cheek. As for me, I fully support the static conservation and preservation, or when possible the restoration and flying, of all "warbird" type aircraft regardless of the era or powerplant. That being said, my true love will always be the WWII prop jobs.

    Zack

  4. #64

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    Steve, my comment on nosewheel and diesel burners was part in jest, but I do believe the original purpose of the CAF was the best, and that purpose, as stated many times back in the old days when I first came into the CAF in 84 was to own, preserve and fly the great military airplanes of WW II. It was not as you believe, that anything goes, at least not in the old days,and back then the CAF still had some WW II combat vets.

    Later, perhaps 10 years ago, they went to the lower common denominator and most anything remotely military was considered good enough. How far do you go with this, is a nice Kingair or Lear flown by the Coast Guard good enough? Hey, it's used by the military. How about the air conditioned,auto pilot trainer the call the Texan II?

    To me, first of all, WW II was a very major war, we were up against a smart and capable opponent in Germany as well as a dedicated, if nuts, enemy in Japan. And it took the Allies their utmost to win. And it was really a world war, and with freedom and democracy at stake.

    Not so with many of the wars since. In Vietnam Iraq , and Afghanistan we are fighting 2nd and 3rd world countries, especially in regard to air power, ( NVA did have some first class anti aircraft guns). Bragging about how our air force defeated Iraq is like Texas bragging about defeating Rice.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with the effort or bravery of any soldier, our guys freezing to death in Korea or scared as can be in the jungle of Nam. If a war was judged just by individual effort or sacrifice, then the other side had it too, how about the Japs who refused to come out of island caves and surrender or Germans on a submarine, or the VC and NVA who after defeating the French, then defeated the world's most powerful nation, the US.

    I have a friend who flys B-52s, a long lasting and classic warplane. But really, dropping bombs on what may be military targets in Afgan , is not the same is those guys who went into Germany in the 17s and Lancasters, etc. against the top fighter pilots in 109s and 190s, even a few 262s.

    By almost any measure, except money spent, what we have as wars these days is thin compared to WW II. Invading a country like Iraq, where half the population probably can't read or write, is not exactly the air power equal of Ali-Frazier, even if they have made the U S pay a bigger price than we thought.

    And for me, not only the historical significance, but just the individual appeal of the planes is better in the WWII and thereabouts era. Comparing a Spitfire or Mustang or B-17 to a T-28, F-15 or Huey is like comparing a great French impressionist painting to a piece of modern art that looks like something you might decorate an elevator with.

    From a marketing standpoint, I can understand why CAF lowered their standards and went to a broader range of "warbirds" , just like schools now have kids playing soccer often instead of football. But just for me, I wouldn't look out the window to see a soccer game.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 05-23-2012 at 11:08 AM.

  5. #65
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    It was not as you believe, that anything goes, at least not in the old days,and back then the CAF still had some WW II combat vets.
    I seem to recall (and this was about 24 years ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy) that the guy my dad was talking to was a bomber pilot from WWII.

    Comparing a Spitfire or Mustang or B-17 to a T-28, F-15 or Huey is like comparing a great French impressionist painting to a piece of modern art that looks like something you might decorate an elevator with.
    Oh, I definitely agree with you on that. I was just saying that what I was taught when first introduced to CAF was something different than what you seem to have experienced.

    Steve, my comment on nosewheel and diesel burners was part in jest
    I didn't think you were being disrespectful on purpose. You're one of the more levelheaded folks on here.

    I have a friend who flys B-52s, a long lasting and classic warplane. But really, dropping bombs on what may be military targets in Afgan , is not the same is those guys who went into Germany in the 17s and Lancasters, etc. against the top fighter pilots in 109s and 190s, even a few 262s.
    I met a guy who had flown in WWII, Korea and the early part of Nam as a bomber pilot. Started off in B-24s as a "punk lieutenant" and ended his career as a full bird flying 52s in 1970. His comment that he was just as afraid of the Russians/Chinese/Vietnamese in MiGs as he was against any of the Germans he was attacked by. He commented that he always thought the NV pilots never got the credit they deserved for being really talented. He also pointed out that he'd take flak any day over a SAM because "You can fly home with a wing shot off. You can't do that if the first shot takes off the entire tail."

    Nowadays, yeah, no comparison since we haven't bombed anyone with a functional fighter command since Viet Nam.

    But just for me, I wouldn't look out the window to see a soccer game.
    I feel that way about all athletics to be honest. I've never understood the appeal of watching someone else play a game.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    I didn't think you were being disrespectful on purpose. You're one of the more levelheaded folks on here.
    You talking to me? www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKkMkodo4MI

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