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Thread: USB stick data recording, blackbox-like housing?

  1. #11
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Actually, I'm not sure how fancy you really have to get. I've seen several accident reports where the plane was well and truly hammered (and toasted) and the NTSB was able to access memory in ordinary components.

    I'd wrap the thing in fiberfax and stuff it in a steel box. Electrically, I'd have a USB jack outside and a USB socket thermaly isolated from the shell inside. Connect the data/power lines with teeny tiny wires (hopefully, they'll melt before transmitting too much heat to the thumb drive).

    Next problem... :-)

    Ron Wanttaja

  2. #12
    Eric Witherspoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    Of course we need to back up and think of what the design requirements are.
    To me it read as if Bob wanted to design something for his personal aircraft, not as a GA product, to be sold/installed on any other aircraft. As such, one requirement would be that it would survive the accident Bob's aircraft gets into. Hopefully, that's none, but hope is not an engineering strategy (at least not a very successful one).

    So, to "fire proof", let's look at the FAA's defined aircraft certification requirements. It took me a little searching to remember exactly where it was, but it's in 23.1191. Fire proof = 2000 deg. F (+/- 150F) for 15 minutes. So, there you go. If you want to ground-test this housing/device, get your 2000F flame and blast it for 15 minutes. If the data can still be extracted, that's a winner. If not, USB sticks are cheap; try again.

    On the tailwheel spring - I agree with Steve - that's going to beat the snot out of whatever you have on there.

    Really you're just talking about the ultimate "one shot" device - it survives the one accident which totals the aircraft. So no small part of this will be luck. I might put it inside a wing tip, especially if it's a tank-in-fuselage design. Because if the airplane goes into trees, wings will likely separate from the rest of it. Or if it burns up (especially if they are just metal wings), there's not much to burn in the wing tips, unless it's a tip tank design.

    I might not even bother with much in terms of environmental protection - maybe a "ruggedized" plastic box of some sort - if you think a water / wet situation is possible (or just to keep it dry while washing the plane, if the mounting location isn't sealed). Think of the ELT - not that these are the most reliable thing in the world, but they've been certified inside a plastic box sealed with an o-ring. It's light weight and relatively low cost. Also reasonably accessible for changing the battery.

    Now if it was intended to be mass produced, and the company producing/selling needed to ensure / guarantee some level of reliability - that might drive a more substantial solution. But for a single airplane, super-extreme-ruggedness = too much weight & too much cost, especially since whatever the solution is must be completely funded from design, build, test, and implementation by one person, for a production run of one.

    In my airplane, I could see a little internal bracket next to the aileron bell crank access cover - so no new holes in the airplane, and the cover is on the bottom of the wing, so it's probably pretty dry in there most of the time, and it's out away from the fuselage (where the fuel is), and it avoids the previously discussed issues with being in the tail. Maybe even put a label on the bottom of the wing there, so if someone else ends up having to do this investigation, there would be some clue that there's something else inside the wing there.
    Murphy's 13th: Every solution breeds new problems...

    http://www.spoonworld.com

  3. #13
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Actually, I'm not sure how fancy you really have to get. I've seen several accident reports where the plane was well and truly hammered (and toasted) and the NTSB was able to access memory in ordinary components.

    I'd wrap the thing in fiberfax and stuff it in a steel box. Electrically, I'd have a USB jack outside and a USB socket thermaly isolated from the shell inside. Connect the data/power lines with teeny tiny wires (hopefully, they'll melt before transmitting too much heat to the thumb drive).

    Next problem... :-)

    Ron Wanttaja
    Find me a way to make a system track the control inputs, accelerometer readings, pitch, roll, yaw, etc and record them in a quick access recorder (QAR) or FDR. Not only would this be helpful in the event of a crash, it would also make flight testing much less stressful.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  4. #14

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    Please go for it!

    This is definitely one of the best aviation topics I have seen. To the person that is even remotely thinking about developing something like this, I say without a reservation, "Go for it." Forget regulatory compliance. Any development is great progress. You have a great opportunity in a fairly unregulated sector of aviation to dream and develop as you desire. A lot of good aviation progress have come from ideas/concepts like this. For example, look at Electronic Flight Bags (EFBs). They were/are a pain in the rear to certify, but when started in the 14CFR23 (FAR 23), uncertified use arena, they took off like wildfire. And now they are common, everyday in the 14CFR25 world. The same is true with Garmin and the original 430s (which weren't originally approved for navigation and IFR use). Garmin changed how the industry operated. The iPad is doing a similar upgrade. YOU can too!

  5. #15
    bwilson4web's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    Find me a way to make a system track the control inputs, accelerometer readings, pitch, roll, yaw, etc and record them in a quick access recorder (QAR) or FDR. Not only would this be helpful in the event of a crash, it would also make flight testing much less stressful.
    Support for flight testing is one of my primary goals. Then I realized this is 90% of the data needed in a crash or failure analysis. But I'm sitting on the fuel tank in my plane, N19WT so a fire is likely to destroy the cabin. Also, it is a foam and fiberglass plane and I don't know how they handle fire. Certainly the Seawind 3000 went to ashes.

    Another desirable task is an electronic logbook for the plane. The first owner and builder was very good about keeping the aircraft log current. The second owner was more detailed about changes but not so good about recording flights. This is 2012 and having an automated, electronic log book, especially one with detailed engine and flight data, means the flight testing extends to every flight.

    I'm not sure how I'll handle making the USB storage 'ruggedized' and I do like the idea of a remote location (aka., rudder/tail or wing-tip.) Of the two, a tail-cone/tail-wheel spring/rudder fin mount would be easiest and looks to be "good enough." Mounted at the root of the tail-wheel spring, it should be relatively protected from vibration yet easily accessible.

    My aircraft maintenance log will be part of the 'home papers' and documented USB stick. Unless I crash into my house, it will survive. <grins>

    One last thought, it is very easy to 'blame the pilot' for accidents, especially the fatal ones. It means no one has to understand if carb ice or other equipment failures might have contributed to the accident. The only data we have about aircraft accidents comes from the accident investigations but they have limited time and budgets. An integrated, electronic aircraft log could be a 'game changer.'

    Thanks you for everyone's insights,
    Bob Wilson
    Last edited by bwilson4web; 04-06-2012 at 01:54 AM.

  6. #16
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    But I'm sitting on the fuel tank in my plane,
    Do tell why?

    lso, it is a foam and fiberglass plane and I don't know how they handle fire.
    About as well as you would expect. Also remember that a lot of the foams homebuilders like to use dissolve when they come in contact with a solvent such as gasoline.

    Mounted at the root of the tail-wheel spring, it should be relatively protected from vibration yet easily accessible.
    I would still recommend against that location.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  7. #17

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    Sounds like there is a need. Fortunately, a commercial product has been available since 2004 or earlier. While high end A/C have FDRs installed at the factory, there was a need what you describe in the single engine A/C. The company that I worked for bought some for about $5K each. They were moved from airframe to airframe out on the line as needed. They are self contained except for a GPS input and the card can be read out by the Flight Operations Quality Assurance (FOQA) director at a PC.

    $5K might be steep for an individual, but there may be an opportunity for someone to rent these out to the masses. Maybe group ownership? The brochure indicates the features and may give folks some ideas. http://www.appareo.com/wp-content/up...Vision1000.pdf

    Bob

  8. #18
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    Thanks Bob. That is a really interesting system there although, as you say, rather steep.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  9. #19

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    Steep it is. But I know couple of folks that could build one like it. The Audio/Visual feature is a new one on me. Ours didn't have it. I hear that the auto racing folks use it and it has some ag tractor uses. That has me bewildered.

    They were regarded as "snitches" from the first installations. Proven when a pilot was called in and his ferry flight was replayed for him. It was pointed out where he deviated 3 miles off course. It showed him tickling Vne at 200 ft MSL. This was where he pulled 2.1 G, 45 deg roll & 25 deg nose up. Coords plotted out to some lakeside camps. He got 30 days off.

  10. #20
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    he Audio/Visual feature is a new one on me. Ours didn't have it. I hear that the auto racing folks use it and it has some ag tractor uses. That has me bewildered.
    There's been talk of cockpit video recording for years. There was a fair amount of resistance from the various pilot groups over concerns that the images could be leaked to the press or posted online, etc. I think it's a great idea although if I were to design a recorder it would have more data channels than what that has but then again that has a lot to do with my background as a crash survivability researcher so a lot of the data would not seem to make much sense to someone who isn't aware of the reasons for it being recorded.

    They were regarded as "snitches" from the first installations.
    That's the other reason why I think a lot of folks in the GA community are so hesitant to include even a cheap non-TSO'ed recorder on board. They view it as some form of invasion of privacy although I honestly think if we had them it would show that at least some of the crashes that are now put down to pilot error would turn out to be mechanical in nature, especially in the homebuilt community.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



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