A fool and His Dream

[steveinindy]

But doing the test flight without flight training probably is foolish, in my opinion.

I would go a step further and say flying without training (let along flight testing without it) is pretty close to the dumbest thing a person can do in aviation and perhaps is almost borderline suicidal. As you (Bill) pointed out, test flying without an idea of the basics of flying an aircraft that has been proven to be stable and easy to handle is a good way to find yourself in a predicament that causes the "deer in the headlights" reaction. Norm, get some flight training first. In an ultralight, it's not that expensive and it will pay huge dividends not only in terms of safety but also it will help you rationalize choices that have to be made during the design and construction of an aircraft. It can also help you to have the insight necessary to pick up when something just isn't "right" during the construction. Money spent on training is seldom ever wasted so long as one approaches it with an open mind and a willingness to learn.

[rosiejerryrosie]

Norm - I've been following your saga with admiration. You have proceeded carefully and logically, and have produced some work that approaches artistry. But, If you are planning to test fly your creation without some flight training, I fear you have departed from your basic good sense. I made my first flight without any training BUT, luckily I made it in Microsoft Flight Simulator and all was made well by "Restarting" after the crash. That choice is not available in the real world. PLEASE GET SOME FLIGHT TRAINING!!

[Norman Langlois]

Thank you ,All three of you. You are exactly right. I do not debate any of the commentary.
I have little to offer in defense of my intent to fly as my own test pilot with so little. Foolish at least. If I am, so were the Wright Bro's. That is not the real point here anyway.
There are threads in the Oshkosh 365 forums that covered most of what I could reflect on.
If I have anything I have thousands of hours in simulation. But no one gives credit to that. What good would flying anything that was not close to what I built.w
Would it be any better than a simulation. If its not the same its not any more acceptable?There are plenty of threads that comment on the unacceptability of dissimilar aircraft.
None of what I say will make it acceptable. I have little choice but to proceed with extreme caution. I do not like the position I am in . It just is.
Let the comments above be an example to anyone that thinks they can ,Even if you build a kit its still needs test flying. If you are not a pilot with the skills of a test pilot your in another boat but its not any safer.

[steveinindy]

If I am, so were the Wright Bro's.

Not really. They learned through flying gliders and a lot of experimentation as well as talking with folks who had tried and failed (and were lucky enough to live to talk about it). Saying they went in cold is a bit misleading.

If you are not a pilot with the skills of a test pilot your in another boat but its not any safer.

To a certain degree. However, assuming you didn't botch the build and whomever designed it did their calculations correct, it should be flyable in a manner that a pilot of average skill can handle.

If I have anything I have thousands of hours in simulation. But no one gives credit to that. What good would flying anything that was not close to what I built.

The same argument could be made for what difference did Sully's experience with gliders far lighter than a heavily loaded Airbus with two goose-filled engines make regarding the ditching in the Hudson. Unless you're building something truly outlandish, almost any experience would be beneficial. Most airplanes of a similar weight, horsepower and configuration (pusher vs. tractor, canard vs. traditional layout, etc) will handle reasonably similarly. It's why we don't have to get type rated from aircraft to aircraft as GA pilots (although there are a few I would argue probably should mandate a type rating because of their safety records in the hands on under-qualified pilots).

[Bill Berson]

Simulators do help. I was able to reduce the time needed for helicopter training with simulation at home first. But I would have crashed the helicopter without additional proper instruction.
Just get 5 hours of airplane dual instruction or enough to land the airplane comfortably. Then you will have learned what simulation did not teach. There will probably be something you cannot do well enough on the first lesson and the instructor can take the controls.

If you can afford to build an aircraft and a computer, why not 5 hours of dual instruction? A pilot certificate is not needed, but the skills are needed.

Bill

[Norman Langlois]

I will make the effort Bill.
Steve a note to you. Building is past tense The aircraft is built. I have been modifying the impinage to a more traditional. the other thing is its a seaplane without wheels. My airfield of sorts is wide and uninhibited.and five miles long.
Secondly I do have a flight instructor as an adviser. So I have all the advise I can ask for . The only problem is no dual instruction available.
The simulation devise I use is more sophisticated than a desktop joystick.
Last seasons taxi runs were all ruder control issue and a poor rear float system. Taxi tests will resume I will take it up to ground effect flight on my own in stages.This will of course include many stages of land backs.All of these tests will be carefully evaluated for adverse effects.The plane being a pusher will improve with speed according to the book so if it handles better than last year as I expect it will You all may be surprised . I will evaluate with the help of others to proceed from there if suitable.
Learning comes in many forms some from good books the book Flight testing home built aircraft is one of my books. It has good information on awareness and treatment of adverse effects. As said above I will take it very slowly with extreme caution. If it handles well I know I can fly it .Its the landing that worry's me most. Of course the effects I experienced last summer were sever adverse yaw and settling back into the water was squirrely
I didn't mean to say I was completely ignorant of how an airplane fly's I just say I have no dual flight instruction except for a half hour in a trike Witch I deem useless information.
If I could find some one to build my plane in X-plane 9's Plane Maker, It might also be helpful .That program is harder for me to learn than Auto Cad was.
I wrote the original post to make a point that being in this position having to test fly an unproven design is no place to put ones self if the are not already a pilot. I am not in disagreement with any thing said here . Its more of a warning for anyone else coming along with wild Ideas . Its not a good feeling My family is worried and I cant blame them.

I felt i left so much out that I should try to explain what I have tried to learn. As well as the fact I am not intending to take off the training wheels to soon.

[steveinindy]

Norman, best of luck with test flying. In all seriousness, I wish you the best and hope everything turns out well.

[maxfig]

I see you are decided to proceed with your dream, I agree that if our old guys had those fears in mind we wouldn't have any airplane today. I have had the same dream as you all my life, I just haven't done anything about it do to a lack of money, and I don't feel sure anybody will let me fly on any airpor around this area. the only thing I recomend you is to proced with a lot of caution. firs try your airplane very well on the ground, make sure you can control it. If you notice what most people who try to fly without experience have in common is fear, once they go up they panic, to avoid that first do a lot of what they call grass hope, in other words elevate just a few feet above the grownd and land again, when you have the feelling that you are oke, then try something like just flying a pattern, and try not to go up too fast. In other words try to train yourself before you go too far.

This advice, is what I have always been planing for the moment when I build my own ultralight. I believe for your what you wright that you can do it, but once again a lot of caution and train yourself well.

I wish you a lot of luck, and I hope everything goes well for you.