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Thread: ethanol removal

  1. #21

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    20
    Quote Originally Posted by kmisegades@bellsouth.net View Post
    http://pure-gas.org/petition



    Kent Misegades
    EAA #520919, Homebuilder, Vintage, Aerobatics
    President, EAA1114, Apex, NC www.eaa1114.org
    Director, Aviation Fuel Club, www.AVIATIONFUELCLUB.org
    Cary, North Carolina, USA
    919-946-7096 (mobile)
    919-303-8230 (home office)

    kent@ufuel.com


    Kent, I applaud you for picking up an aviation concern and pouring your time and effort into it. As a fellow aviator I appreciate your enthusiasm for aviation.

    That said, I think there are some real misunderstandings communicated in your last post. However, we are in thread drift mode. So, back to the original topic. We are in agreement on it being a bad idea to try and separate the ethanol from a blended fuel.



    If you want ethanol free, it is better to go out and find it. The PureGas group can help you do that.


    For discussing the ins and outs of ethanol, I'll start a different thread where we can go back and forth on ethanol qualities.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nomocom View Post


    That said, I think there are some real misunderstandings communicated in your last post. However, we are in thread drift mode. So, back to the original topic. We are in agreement on it being a bad idea to try and separate the ethanol from a blended fuel.


    If you want ethanol free, it is better to go out and find it. The PureGas group can help you do that.

    For discussing the ins and outs of ethanol, I'll start a different thread where we can go back and forth on ethanol qualities.
    Misunderstandings? Please list these.

    I disagree that this is drifting from a thread. The notion that anyone would attempt to separate ethanol from a blend underscores a severe lack of understanding of the many dangers of ethanol in aviation fuel. Experiment with airframes and engines, but not with fuels. This can not be said enough.

  4. #24

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    Mar 2012
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    4
    Since no one has chimed in here with actual ethanol washing experience I will relay my experience. In early July 2010 I bagan experimenting with washing the ethanol out of my gasoline to use in my 912 powered Kitfox III. From that time to the end of 2010 I probably washed nearly 200 gallons of gasoline. I had no engine problems. The only other problem that I had was that I would accumulate a few ounces of water/alcohol in my gascolater and the steel bowel started rusting. This showed that that there was slight additional phase separation over time after I filled my tanks. I flew to Oshkosh that year from Austin, TX my first tank full being washed gasoline. I finally quit washing gasoline in the Winter that year for 2 reasons. The first is that I thought cold weather might cause enough phase separation to over tax my gascolator. The second was a friend who is a Rotax expert said he was seeing some pitted float bowels from small amounts of ethanol/water sitting at the bottom of the Rotax carbs. During my testing I occasionally flew flights that used whole tanks of my washed fuel. I am not suggesting anyone wash gasoline because there is some danger involved handling the gasoline as well as having to burn off the alcohol accumulated after washing. There is also danger in getting a bit of continued separation if your plane sits with full tanks.

  5. #25

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    Nov 2011
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    Minnetonka MN
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    I've been thinking of trying it with my lawn mower - but no where else.

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peteohms View Post
    Since no one has chimed in here with actual ethanol washing experience I will relay my experience. In early July 2010 I bagan experimenting with washing the ethanol out of my gasoline to use in my 912 powered Kitfox III. From that time to the end of 2010 I probably washed nearly 200 gallons of gasoline. I had no engine problems. The only other problem that I had was that I would accumulate a few ounces of water/alcohol in my gascolater and the steel bowel started rusting. This showed that that there was slight additional phase separation over time after I filled my tanks. I flew to Oshkosh that year from Austin, TX my first tank full being washed gasoline. I finally quit washing gasoline in the Winter that year for 2 reasons. The first is that I thought cold weather might cause enough phase separation to over tax my gascolator. The second was a friend who is a Rotax expert said he was seeing some pitted float bowels from small amounts of ethanol/water sitting at the bottom of the Rotax carbs. During my testing I occasionally flew flights that used whole tanks of my washed fuel. I am not suggesting anyone wash gasoline because there is some danger involved handling the gasoline as well as having to burn off the alcohol accumulated after washing. There is also danger in getting a bit of continued separation if your plane sits with full tanks.
    Pete,
    I'm glad you shared your experience. Sounds like you hit several key points. The washed fuel supports combustion, but there are reasons why it isn't a good idea. Wet fuel= higher tendency for corrosion, separation isn't perfect, so the separation continues, though slowly, in your tanks.

    Those contemplating using the wet fuel, have you also considered the water might freeze and block off fuel flow? After washing out the bulk of the alcohol, now you don't have the antifreeze and the fuel system is at risk for freezing. That's a key reason isopropyl alcohol is "approved" for removing water. Not only does alcohol carry it through, it prevents water from freezing and blocking off flow.

    How do you handle disposal of the gasoline, water, and alcohol blend. Gasoline you say? Gasoline because some of the components go with the water and alcohol. I'd guess your nose verified some gasoline components went along with the water and alcohol?

  7. #27
    This series of topics has really been thrashed over the years. There is, I think, only one consistent reason for not trying to wash the ethanol out of fuel to be used in airplanes, and it's mentioned in only a few of the articles and posts. Ethanol is added to low-octane fuel stock for one reason: to raise the octane rating without using tetraethyl lead. When you take the ethanol out (assuming you do it properly, dispose of the waste properly, etc. etc.) you have lower octane fuel. If your engine is happy with 73 or 80 octane, "washed" autogas is probably okay. But if you are looking for 91/96, it's not likely that you'll be able to get it by washing even premium autogas.

    (This is off topic and I will look for another thread to continue it, but my main concern is what modification is needed to make a regular aircraft engine work well on E85 or even E99. The FAA teardown report on the IO-360 they ran with AGE85 was not good news.)

  8. #28

    Modify laws, not engines

    Quote Originally Posted by dljosephson View Post
    This series of topics has really been thrashed over the years. There is, I think, only one consistent reason for not trying to wash the ethanol out of fuel to be used in airplanes, and it's mentioned in only a few of the articles and posts. Ethanol is added to low-octane fuel stock for one reason: to raise the octane rating without using tetraethyl lead. When you take the ethanol out (assuming you do it properly, dispose of the waste properly, etc. etc.) you have lower octane fuel. If your engine is happy with 73 or 80 octane, "washed" autogas is probably okay. But if you are looking for 91/96, it's not likely that you'll be able to get it by washing even premium autogas.

    (This is off topic and I will look for another thread to continue it, but my main concern is what modification is needed to make a regular aircraft engine work well on E85 or even E99. The FAA teardown report on the IO-360 they ran with AGE85 was not good news.)
    This is not entirely true - in modern times, ethanol was prescribed as an oxygenate in California to reduce pollutants. It became used later as a replacement for MTBE, not TEL, since MTBE was the original replacement for TEL for vehicles. When a few fuel tanks were found to be leaking MTBE, fears over the potential for groundwater pollution lead to widespread use of ethanol to increase engine's resistance to detonation. BigAg and the biofuels lobby of course promoted this vigorously. Interestingly, overseas ETBE has been the main octane-boosting additive. The US is the world's leading producer of ETBE, but most is shipped overseas. Many in the US have the same knee-jerk reaction to ETBE as to MTBE, due probably to ignorance that the two are like comparing apples and oranges. (So much for our education system...) ETBE however is in use in European aviation fuels as an octane booster, and it is hinted that GAMI's 100UL fuel may use it also.

    The only modifications we need regarding ethanol are to our laws - the best would be a complete repeal of EISA 2007 that created the ethanol production mandates in the first place. Let free markets determine our energy production, not bureaucrats and crony capitalists.

  9. #29
    This is a great thread. I saw on our Google Analytics page that you were discussing Star Tron, so I wanted to chime in. It's perfectly OK to use Star Tron in any land-based engine that is fueled by gasoline or by an ethanol-blended fuel, but it is NOT recommended, approved, suggested or even remotely implied for use in any aviation application. Yes, it does great things for land-based engines, but do not use in in aircraft!

    We have done an incredible amount of research into fuels - with and without ethanol/alcohol. We would be pleased to try and answer any questions you may have. You can call us directly if you want at (800) 327-8583.

    Let me be 100% clear: I'm not trying to sell any product here - I do NOT want you using our product in your planes! But we do have a lot of info on fuels and as a bunch of past and future pilots, we're pleased to be of whatever assistance that we can do so.

    Bill

  10. #30

    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by billatstarbrite View Post
    but it is NOT recommended, approved, suggested or even remotely implied for use in any aviation application. Yes, it does great things for land-based engines, but do not use in in aircraft!
    Hi Bill,
    You seem very adamant that your product should not be used in our engines. Is there something particularly bad about Star Tron that will cause damage to engines that are above sea level? I've been using your product in fuel I keep at home for my lawn mower, motorcycle, etc., but your posting raises concerns that perhaps I should not be using it at all.

    Can you please clarify for us?

    Thank you,

    -Dj

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