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Thread: f-16 fog

  1. #11

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    Under the right conditions, the ECS system in an F-16 can turn the cockpit into zero visability in seconds. Defog can take as little as 15 seconds to clear and as much as 30 seconds. Any ECS control other than the defog lever requires the pilot to remove his hand from the stick.....not exactly what you want to do at 100' and 125+ kts on final or above nosewheel steering limits on the runway.

    I've been in the back seat on ground runs that went to zero vis in the cockpit in less than 30 seconds. It was bad enough that I couldn't see my engine guy in the front seat other than a dark shape. I've even had it rain on me due to ambient conditions and a really cranky ECS.
    Last edited by CraigCantwell; 02-22-2012 at 01:27 PM.

  2. #12
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    If it was the pilot himself using this story without concurrence from the investigating authority I might be pretty skeptical. I just don't see the advantage of the Air Force Accident Investigation lying about this. I wasn't in or there, so although I am intrigued by the results of the finding, I am going to take it at face value. Fog it is!

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Floatsflyer View Post
    By chance, I was on the grass close to the intersection where he ran off the end. As it rolled by on the runway I knew he was too fast to stop before the pavement ended and I could clearly see the pilot through the cockpit glass. So if I could see him, he could see clearly out as well. I didn't see where he touched down so don't know if he landed long but he was surely landing hot. Fog??!!, I don't think so. The only fog that's apparent is in the minds and judgement of the USAF investigators who came up with this wacky conclusion.

    So...is "fog" also the likely reason for the vintage jet(a variant of the F-86 I believe) that ran of the end of the very same runway the very next day?

    they need a like button on here!!!LOL

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigCantwell View Post
    Under the right conditions, the ECS system in an F-16 can turn the cockpit into zero visability in seconds. Defog can take as little as 15 seconds to clear and as much as 30 seconds. Any ECS control other than the defog lever requires the pilot to remove his hand from the stick.....not exactly what you want to do at 100' and 125+ kts on final or above nosewheel steering limits on the runway.

    I've been in the back seat on ground runs that went to zero vis in the cockpit in less than 30 seconds. It was bad enough that I couldn't see my engine guy in the front seat other than a dark shape. I've even had it rain on me due to ambient conditions and a really cranky ECS.

    With the billions our mlitary has to spend they can't have this problem fixed? I find that very hard to believe.

  5. #15

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    Dave: That would be like trying to get carb vendors to make carbs that won't ice up at 60F in any weather condition....No matter how hard you design for every case, it's not possible. On that day, at the time of the incident, temp was 75F, dew point 72F and RH over 88%. If I remember my weather stuff correctly, temp-dew point spreads of 3 degrees or less and you are within the window of being able to form fog. Now couple that with an ECS system that had a hard fail prior to the last landing attempt and things went bad in a hurry. Here is a link to the AIB report and if you look at Tab Z-13, it shows the cockpit extremely foggy and this was shot after the nosewheel was already on the ground.

    http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Sit...0F-16C_AIB.pdf

    It makes for some interesting reading from the prospective as both a pilot and a maintainer.

  6. #16
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigCantwell View Post
    http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Sit...0F-16C_AIB.pdf

    It makes for some interesting reading from the prospective as both a pilot and a maintainer.
    Thanks for posting that. Things start to make a bit more sense....

    Ron Wanttaja

  7. #17

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    I think, like most of us when you first read that cockpit fog caused the overrun, I was pretty skeptical. I would have given that pilot credit for being able to think up a good story, even if improbable, when faced with a damaged plane. How can fog, even if present affect brakes? Sounded like someone was trying to sell us an Edsel.

    After reading the full report, I am not so sure. It admits that the pilot flew the pattern too low, approached and touched down too fast, a little long, and without air brakes. Then it says the fog interfered. Maybe so, I am no F-16 expert, never even heard of the fog thing before.
    Hard to believe it was $5.4 million of damage.
    And what about the other plane that overran the runway, I think a civilian jet with no damage?

    I am glad the pilot was able to "egress" safely. Most of the rest of us would have just climbed out. Much hotter to be able to "egress".

    One interesting part of the report is that the pilot, a very experienced AF and F-16 instructor, had not only flown an F-16 into EAA Osh before, but also flew in a WW II civilian warbird. I wonder who he is and what warbird he was flying?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 02-23-2012 at 10:14 AM.

  8. #18
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    I was surpised to read about the published F-16 landing distances. How many people have we seen who can barely get a Mooney stopped in 3000'?
    Ryan Winslow
    EAA 525529
    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

  9. #19

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    I owned and flew 2 Mooney's , M20C,and M20J for more than 10 years, and also flew a friends 231. There is no problem getting either one of them stopped in a reasonable distance, more like 1500 feet or less.
    You just have to use the proper approach speed, seems to me I recall to be 70k on short final for the J, and then close the throttle and hold the nose off just like any normal landing.
    If you come in too fast,then keep power on, it will continue to fly down the runway. I have a friend, a CFI who had trouble landing his M20E. He'd fly to the runway ok, but was leery of closing the throttle so would float along in ground effect, with the plane practically asking to land.
    Like many people, this CFI learned to fly in a Cessna, and got used to relying on the flaps to slow down.
    I have landed on an 1800 foot long Texas ranch strip and used Plymouth, Mi, at 2556 long with 4 people and luggage.

  10. #20

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    F-16 Landing

    As much as I would like to give the F-16 pilot the benefit of the doubt, I was there and saw him land long and fast. I do not understand how a temporary fogging of the windscreen could cause him to do that. If he fogged up before he touched down he should have gone around. If he fogged up after he landed that does not explain why he landed long and fast. What am I missing here?

    Dave Prizio

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