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Thread: RV or Harmon Rocket for Competition?

  1. #31
    AcroGimp's Avatar
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    Great critique and suggestions Eric - that is the kind of help that usually costs money - and I will second the suggestion to get as much instruction as you can afford and not move on until you can safely and reliably perform the maneuvers.

    I am constantly amazed at just how willing folks in the acro world are to share - helps make us all better and safer and that is the goal.
    Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right.

    EAA Chapter 14, IAC Chapter 36

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  2. #32
    BruceAir's Avatar
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    If you're interested in using one of the RV models for competitive aerobatics, I recommend reading "Approaching Aerobatics," an article by Dick Van Grunsven in the December 2000 issue of Sport Aerobatics (the IAC magazine).

    Here's the reference:

    Year Month Page Magazine Article
    2000 12 09 Sport Aerobatics Approaching Aerobatics by Dick Van Grunsven (4 pgs)


    As a member benefit, you can obtain a copy of an EAA-published magazine article listed above, free of charge, by calling EAA Membership Services at 1-800-564-6322. Please have the name of the magazine, year, month and page number ready when calling to make a request. Sorry, we cannot provide reprints of non-EAA magazine articles.

  3. #33

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    Thanks for all that - lots for me to make some improvements - I believe I have developed some bad habits for sure - partly because I have no one else to fly with that does aerobatics and I'm new at it as well - just started last august or so and have maybe 25 hours or so doing acro in this plane. As for the hammerhead - why I developed this bad habit - was I knocked out the motor - 2 Times or so - when I first learned the procedure - sure it looked more like a real hammerhead but I took it too far up and when you do that you get what I'll call - Hang time - and the plane is neutral and or going into neg - g - and it dosn't take much in the way of neg g's to cause issues with the engine. probably the same reason I'm quick to flip it over from the inverted - in the cuban 8 as you described - I'm not flying the 45 - downline inverted long enough because of the lack of the inverted systems - mainly the fuel system. every plane maybe different in this respect but my plane reacts quite quickly - there is a little delay I suppose - but it will spit and sputter etc.... and well the next thing is the engine quitting. I only had that happen 2 Times as I mentioned - they talk about it in the book from Neil Williams - and well they also talk about the engine coming back on - on the down line - which is true - but wow - this is scary and not something I would want to practice lots. I'm looking forward in July to getting my CH180 - it's set up properly for aerobatics - and I can learn to do tail slides etc... and much more in the way of inverted stuff. I want to go to WA state and get some more training - and well it would awesome too to be able to attend training camps etc... all that stuff.

    But what you have provided is great I'm going to print that off - if I can - and make some notes and practice trying to fix - the "bad habbits" but at the same time be cognisent of the limitations of my plane - and the pretty green pilot. I did all of 4 - 5 hours in a citabria - everything else I've learned myself and or from that book on aerobatics. I had wanted to go last summer to Rocky mountain house but it took much longer to get my C of A completed then I had expected - and cost way more too! leaving me pretty broke - ouch! So I did'nt get to the contest - cause I got my C of A near the end of August or middle of August - I only just started to do aerobatics with it and would of seriously bombed out - probably frustrating myself . Rather than that I would like my first IAC compeitition to be a pleasant experience - I know being green to acro - I'm no expert - up here since i'm the only one well bit of a celb. haha or other's may think I'm just nuts or something - but that's the wrap we get you know. You sit down in the coffee room with all these cessna - piper - talor craft pilots - having flown for 40 years or more - 50,000 hour pilots - you know - and talk about aerobatics?? some of them are cool about it - how's it going up there - etc... other's probably think anyone doing acro is taking unnecceary risks and are being wreckless. It's too bad people or some poeple think that - because personally I feel the aerobatic pilots are the best pilots - as we can manage our way through almost anything - and can handle the plane in many different attitudes. Had I not had acro training - when my engine quit - what would a normal student do? level off - set to glide? may day may day - panic - etc.... what field what direction is the wind? etc... ok now try a restart. I did not do that - I put the plane on the down line - straight down - prop is feathering - mix. rich - throttle open - and it fired right up - all on it's own once Positive G was restablished. (OK the first time this happend - my heart was going just a little). parachutes are optional here! My new plane comes with the hooker harness and a parachute chair he called it.

    So thanks a bunch for the comments - I will do some pratice and try doing another video - and sent it to you to see if I've improved. Take care. fly safe.

  4. #34

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    I will have to look that one up - I've got a bunch of issues here at my desk but not that one as I've only been a member for 2 years or so.

  5. #35
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank_rv4 View Post
    ...but it will spit and sputter etc.... and well the next thing is the engine quitting. I only had that happen 2 Times as I mentioned - they talk about it in the book from Neil Williams - and well they also talk about the engine coming back on - on the down line - which is true - but wow - this is scary and not something I would want to practice lots.
    You obviously have a carb rather than fuel injection. Yeah, a carb will quit delivering fuel the instant you go slightly negative. I'm not suggesting doing anything you're uncomfortable with, but this is really nothing to worry about and is perfectly fine. A little unnerving at first, maybe. I used to have an RV-3 with a carb and would draw very brief negative lines. The engine would quit for about a second, but starts back up as fast as it died as soon as you're back under positive G. As long as the prop keeps turning it will restart. If you have a metal prop, there's a lot of flywheel effect, so it would be just about impossible to get it to stop during flight. I had a wood prop, which has much less flywheel effect, and would be more prone to stoppage if you really delayed the recovery from the negative G line. But it's such brief exposure flying Sportsman-level acro, that this is not a concern. As mentioned, you might throw a little oil, that you'll want to monitor.

    If you're going to compete in the RV-4, it's actually better to draw no line before AND after a roll (half cuban for example) than to draw a long positive G line and then no inverted line after (or before). The way the scoring rules are written, you'll get better scores. But you really can draw a perceptible negative line without inverted systems, and maintain the ideal standards for the figures. If you draw no line before and after a roll, the max you could get on the figure is an 8. I've got a buddy who did well in Sportsman with a non-inverted Clipped T-Craft. Just have to get used to the engine quitting a little. Again, if you're not comfortable, don't do it.

    Regarding the hammerhead, I used to do these in the RV-3 as well. You can 'cheat' the vertical upline a little to stay a little over zero G. In other words, fly a few degrees short of a true vertical upline. I never had any engine issues during the hammerhead. A good hammerhead is pure technique. If you get on your back a little during the pivot (not maintain the pivot plane), the engine will sag until you load the wings up again.

    Anyway, good luck with the CH180. Is it the red/white one for sale on barnstormers? Looks like a unique airplane.

  6. #36

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    some more awesome advise - thanks - yes it's that red and white one - canadian AME built it - he also happens to be an aerobatic instructor - he build it for himself. It's quite the performer for the $ - 3000 feet per min in the climb - which is awesome - 910 lb eW - 205HP - so 4.44 lb's per HP . its like brand new with 165TT on engine and airframe. here I can also maintain it myself. Only cavote is I have to fly mine all the way to Quebec to do the trade. that's our deal. it's worth it for me cause for me to put a ellison throttle body or fuel injection on my plane not to meniton christen inverted oil system - I'm still flying an RV4 - even with those systems it's not going to do that well in aerobatics as a true aerobatic plane would. semitrical airfoil - no or very little dehidral - 5lbs per HP or or less - for unlimited cat - plus or minuse 10G etc.... mine will never be that. So we are trading - he's likely selling mine that's fine. I know his is in absoult prestine condition so I'm very lucky I think to have come across it. Pierre will also provide me some tips on things as well - he's already given me the entry speeds for all the manuvers - VNE is 260mh o that thing. amazing. the C of G is fussy though I can't gain too much wieght! darn got to cut out that dark beer! I shoulld have it in July I'll let you know if I get it for sure! thanks for all your help - I will practice these suggestions. I agree you got to fake it a bit. like my spiins for example - I put it into that spin - I make it do what I want. It's not really fake - it's just that I do certain things to make the plane do what it's supposed to. I push forward - to hold it on it's nose down - I hold some alieron and full rudder to get it spinning - etc... I will try some of your other tips for the RV4. see if I can improve that hammerhead too.

  7. #37

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    Back to the original question: Can RV's compete in IAC contests? Going through the members only IAC US and Canadian contest results from 2000 to May of this year, I found thirty four (34) RVs have competed. A break down of the aircraft models were: one (1) RV-3, fifteen (15) RV-4s, four (4) RV-6s, three (3) RV-7s, ten (10) RV-8s, and one (1) rocket. Ten (10) competed at the primary level; twenty-three (23) at sportsman level, and one (1) at the intermediate level. The intermediate level competitor flew an RV-8 to 2nd place with a score of 82.4 percent in the Canandian Open 7/21/2006. So the answer is YES. Join an IAC chapter, practice with ground critique, and come have some fun.

  8. #38

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    Wonder what he's planning on doing - ? I think it's also got a lot to do with $$ you have to spend - if you have the body - and aspirations to do aerobatics - start with a decatholon or CAB - etc... and move into other types - if you are able to progress. I have an RV4 - it's fun - I plan on competing in primary and hopefully sportsman this fall in rocky mountain house - I've registered. Definetly without a inverted fuel and oil it's a huge issue - I have to be quite carefull not to do damage to my motor and or stall the motor - takes more work to make the figures look nice and keep the engine happy at the same time. I would not really consider even with a full inverted system going beyond the sportsman with my plane. I would love to have a edge 360 - or extra 200 - or 260 etc... and prehaps that will be my next type of plane. I like those harmon rockets and F1 rockets as well but they are built for doing one thing really well that is going fast. faster you go - makes doing acro harder - as it exerts way more presure on the control surfaces etc... and can pull more G's too. Most aerobatic planes are highly manuverable - and very predicatable - stall spin characteristics etc... fast of course but usually for climb more than top speeds. 3000 feet per min - climb rates - etc... 200mph top speeds are prefectly adequate. Start going 250mph - and try staying in a box. So again I say it simply depends on what you want for yourself - and the coin you have to spend. If you want to do competition aerobatics - stick with planes designed for that purpose - if you want a sport plane that can do some aerobatics - then the RV series or HR's are fine for that - but are limited in what they can do re: aerobatics. I'm already hoping that a win fall - comes my way so I can up grade - and hopefully do some dual down in WA state to learn some intermediate aerobatic manuvers.

    I did have a look at those F1 kits - compared to say doing a HR 2 - it's more pricy - but I think they are very well designed and built - the QB kits from Team Rocket I believe they are called if they are still in business - are amazing and well worth the coin - since much of the "hard" work has been done for you. wings are mostly completed - fuse mostly completed - etc... still meets the 51% rule though. To build a HR 2 - you get a RV4 kit from Vans - minus some parts and the HR kit from John Harmon - and get ready for about 2years min - of work. 1800 hours anyways. The F1 can be done in about 800 I believe they say. Not sure of the cost difference. I know they have 2 types of wings now - one is the laminar flow - the other is the sport wing - similar to the HR 2 - wing - design - better for acro then the other wing - I believe. there are lots for sale though here and there - and that's a good way to go too - if you can afford that - as you can be up flying quickly that way.

    Also recommend - tranisition training - I did 5 hours with Mike Seager in Veronia OR - it was a blast - he's aweseome and very reasonable too. I would not of flown my RV4 without that training. Dido with a HR 2 or other. And consider yourself lucky as there are a lot of places where you can train to do aerobatics - we don't have that luxery here unfortunatly. Best of luck. Let us know what you decide - HR - or RV etc... or other. there are some great deals on some acro machines these days too - Giles - etc... check barnstormers or trade a plane etc... and or any of the local chapters.

  9. #39
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank_rv4 View Post
    I like those harmon rockets and F1 rockets as well but they are built for doing one thing really well that is going fast....Start going 250mph - and try staying in a box.
    Frank, just because an airplane can potentially do 250 doesn't mean you have to do 250 during a sequence. That's what being a pilot is all about...controlling the airplane. No need to use full power either. You can fly the Sportsman figures across a wide range of speeds. You could do the Sportsman sequence in a Rocket just fine without breaking 150 mph if you wanted to. Staying in the box is generally a pilot factor, not an aircraft factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by frank_rv4 View Post
    If you want to do competition aerobatics - stick with planes designed for that purpose - if you want a sport plane that can do some aerobatics - then the RV series or HR's are fine for that - but are limited in what they can do re: aerobatics.
    I can only think of one airplane specifically designed for competition acro - the DR-107 "One Design". The number of acro competitors is minute compared to the number of folks who have an interest in simply having a hot plane and flopping it around a little. My point is that since there is effectively no such thing as an airplane "designed" for competition acro, lots of airplanes are perfectly suitable, depending on the category you'd like to fly. RV's, Stearmans, Cubs, Citabrias, Buckers, etc. can fly Sportsman perfectly well. No need to discount their ability or suitability to fly competition. What folks who are not actually involved with competition don't typically understand is that competition flying isn't much different or any harder on the airplane or the pilot than recreational aerobatics. The difference is that the competition pilot attempts to fly with a high degree of precision - accurate 45 and vertical lines, round loops, level rolls, crisp points, stopping spins on heading, equal line lengths, precise attitudes before/after rolls, staying on heading, staying in the box, etc. All of these things are pilot factors, not airplane factors. I just feel the need to point these things out when folks who have no competition experience start minimizing the capability or suitability of certain airplanes, RV's especially. Ask 'willymac' here how suitable his RV is for competition : http://www.usnationalaerobatics.org/...?ContestID=312
    Last edited by RetroAcro; 08-23-2012 at 08:39 AM.

  10. #40

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    I will note that one of the most important skills that you must develop for competition acro is precise slow flight. Across the top of a loop or at the top of a vertical line pushing or pulling to level without any sinking to post a high score requires outstanding slow flight skills.

    So you must be able to fly your ship well from Vne down to Vs as well as the speeds in between. You can't just leave the throttle in one position and zoom around. Its about doing "that pilot stuff".

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS

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