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Thread: FIKI and Amateur Build Aircraft

  1. #11
    Anymouse's Avatar
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    Here's the reg in question. I bolded sub-parts B and D. Section B only states what must be done to move to Phase II (controllable and not hazardous). Sub-part D is more pertinent to this conversation. In particular, Paragraph 2 states: "Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator." When the DAR issues the airworthiness certificate, a set of operating limitations is also issued. They state what operations can and cannot be done in Phase I and II. Going strictly on memory, I believe Phase I normally states that IFR flight is not allowed. However, Phase II has wording similar to, "VFR only unless equipped in accordance with CFR 14 91.xxx." There is similar wording for night flight. That is the "unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator" part.

    So, my conclusion is that no IFR flight is allowed during Phase I, but assuming your aircraft is properly equipped, IFR flight IS allowed during Phase II.

    I don't recall anything being mentioned in the operating specifications about flight in icing conditions, but I'd be interested to get an authoritative answer on it. Or at least some guidance on how to go about it without renting some heavy aircraft to spray me down in freezing temperatures.

    Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
    certificate--
    (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
    or
    (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
    (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental
    certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is
    shown that--
    (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
    speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
    (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or
    design features.
    (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special
    operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
    experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
    airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for
    particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over
    a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with
    terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of
    safety in air commerce.
    (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental
    certificate shall--
    (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the
    aircraft;
    (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically
    authorized by the Administrator; and
    (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
    aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with
    operating control towers.

    (e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental
    certificate under Sec. 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or
    hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental
    certificate under Sec. 21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to--
    (1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered
    ultralight vehicle in accordance with Sec. 91.309; or
    (2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person
    provides prior to January 31, 2010.
    (f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental
    certificate under Sec. 21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance
    with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.
    (g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental
    certificate under Sec. 21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider
    that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for
    compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or
    hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the
    preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has--
    (1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport
    aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or
    an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection
    procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable
    to the FAA; or
    (2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness
    certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.
    (h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the
    provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of
    conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of
    deviation authority.
    (1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at
    any time.
    (2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to
    the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A
    request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of
    the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of
    safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the
    deviation requested.
    (i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the
    Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons
    that may be carried in the aircraft.
    Someday I'll come up with something profound to put here.

  2. #12
    Jim Hann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anymouse View Post
    When the DAR issues the airworthiness certificate, a set of operating limitations is also issued. They state what operations can and cannot be done in Phase I and II.
    Who took over for Joe Norris as the DAR expert when he retired? I think you have hit it on the head though, it is an Ops Lims question, and the answer could be different depending on who issued the ones on a particular aircraft.

    Jim
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  3. #13

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    Per FAA Order 8130.2D, compliance with 91. 319 is accomplished during Phase I testing. Phase II amateur built operating limitations (item number 8) prohibit operations at night and operations under IFR unless the aircraft is equipped for night flying and IFR as appropriate IAW with 91.205. Phase II operating limitations do not prohibit flight in icing conditions.

    Seriously, do we want the FAA to step in and issue more prohibitions for E/AB aircraft because we are too dumb to know better? If homebuilts start tumbling out of the sky because they are loaded up with ice, the bureaucrats will issue more rules. Icing is really not for amateurs or amateur built airplanes.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Blum View Post
    For examples, if you don't fly IFR during your flight test phase, you can't fly your airplane in IFR conditions. If you don't fly aerobatics during your flight test phase, you can't fly aerobatics later.
    Approval for IFR and aerobatics are handled differently in the aircraft operating limitations. Normally, aerobatics are prohibited by Phase II operating limitations. If an applicant doesn't want that limitation, he has to perform each specific aerobatic maneuver for which approval is sought during Phase I. Those maneuvers are then listed in the the blank spaces provided and become an active part of the Phase II limitations. So for aerobatics, flight testing plus pen and ink changes to the operating limitations are required.

    Phase I operating limitations prohibit IFR, period. Once in Phase II, the operating limitations prohibit IFR unless the aircraft is equipped IAW with 91.205. In addition, that IFR equipment has to be inspected and maintained IAW applicable regs. However, no specific flight testing is required for IFR approval.

  5. #15

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    Agree

    I agree.

  6. #16
    Mike Switzer's Avatar
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    Assuming I will use a Ford 302, I have toyed with the idea of turning the wing leading edges into a thin "radiator" and running engine coolant thru it, but you still have the problem of ice accumulation on the other control surfaces.

  7. #17
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    My concern with that Mike would be that the warm leading edge would cause run back with the ice building up behind the area. If you get that ridge at the wrong point, you could get a sufficiently turbulent flow over the wing to cause an uncommanded aileron excursion such as tended to occur with the original design of the deicing system on the ATR commuter aircraft series.

    Honestly, I would argue that for your average GA aircraft there is no "mission" sufficiently important that a full deicing system is justified in terms of expense, complexity, etc.
    Unfortunately in science what you believe is irrelevant.

    "I'm an old-fashioned Southern Gentleman. Which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-***** when I want to be."- Robert A. Heinlein.



  8. #18
    Mike Switzer's Avatar
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    I had more or less put that idea on the back burner anyway, as it could always be incorporated later. I think the Spitfire had some sort of leading edge cooling system, I wonder how it performed in icing conditions?

  9. #19
    Mike Switzer's Avatar
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    I have had ice on the airframe inadvertently enough times that I know I don't want anything to do with it intentionally.

  10. #20
    Anymouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    My concern with that Mike would be that the warm leading edge would cause run back with the ice building up behind the area. If you get that ridge at the wrong point, you could get a sufficiently turbulent flow over the wing to cause an uncommanded aileron excursion such as tended to occur with the original design of the deicing system on the ATR commuter aircraft series.
    The RDD system I linked to earlier had a nifty way of preventing this. Basically, there were two strips. A thin strip right on the leading edge, and a thicker strip that went back further. During warmer temperatures (28 and up??) both strips were active at all times. During colder operations, the thin center strip was active at all times, and the thicker strip would active every minute or so (not sure of the exact timing). The theory was that in the warmer temps, the melted ice wouldn't have time to re-freeze before departing the trailing edge. However, in colder temps, the water would refreeze on the thicker strip, and be shedded similar to the way boots shed after a build up.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    Honestly, I would argue that for your average GA aircraft there is no "mission" sufficiently important that a full deicing system is justified in terms of expense, complexity, etc.
    Can't argue that, but it would be nice to have the option. For me, $20k is a bit too steep for that option though, seeing how my "mission" is not THAT important. In reality, I'd maybe use such a system maybe once or twice in the life cycle of my Tango. I'll just wait it out on the ground and buy $10k worth of cookies and iced tea. It does make for interesting conversation though.
    Someday I'll come up with something profound to put here.

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