User Fees again?

[MEdwards]

If I'm reading it right it's a hundred dollars every use of ATC services? What exactly is that considered? and how many non commercial pilots actually use ATC? Sure would make it tough around a Class-B,C airspace but a boom for the smaller dying airports, hangars would be full from big city/airport exodus.

So far they're only talking about fees for bizjets, but of course that can change at any time. Once they get the user fee concept established, it will expand and grow. Nobody knows yet what would be considered use of ATC services; so far it's just somebody's idea of what oughta be done. Details TBD. But here the devil isn't just in the details, it's in the basic concept itself.

How many non commercial pilots actually use ATC? Huh? Lots! I fly into airports with control towers all the time. I often call for radar service around big airports and sometimes flight following enroute. I fly IFR very rarely, but many noncommercial pilots file IFR everywhere they go. I live near a huge complex of restricted areas that seem to open/close on a whim, and I often call Center to check their current status. Every one of those things is a service looking for a fee if the user fee system gets adopted. And safety would definitely be impaired, because fewer of us would file IFR, use radar service, or call ATC for necessary information.

Your point about outlying airports is interesting--you're right, outlying airports might see a big increase in business. But I'll bet the FBOs at those airports aren't supporting user fees any more than the rest of us.

[Racegunz]

Your point about outlying airports is interesting--you're right, outlying airports might see a big increase in business. But I'll bet the FBOs at those airports aren't supporting user fees any more than the rest of us.

I'm not suporting it either (in case anyone thought I did) I also believe the camel's nose and all that about politicians. I'm not instrument rated and with the costs of things likely I won't be, just doesn't make sense for me. Thanks for describing your use of ATC, I know that all the big city boys use them just for clearance. That said, I can understand the non-aviators view point though, all the federal monies that go into public use airports comes mostly from tax payers that will never use them. I know that literally millions of dollars have been poured into the local airports surrounding me and they are all non-towered and seldom used, my view may not be popular but I don't see how it's fair to the masses.

[Mike M]

all the federal monies that go into public use airports comes mostly from tax payers that will never use them

NOT TRUE. ever fedex/ups a package, you used the system. etc, etc, etc. besides, most of the money comes from fuel taxes and passenger fees, not the treasury. darn it, folks, see this for what it is! class warfare! "i won't raise YOUR taxes, only that other cheapskate that's leeching off you." HOW STUPID ARE YOU ANYWAY? it's not the camel's nose, it's the camel's male reproductive organ!! don't massage the darn thing, chop it off!

[Frank Giger]

He's writing from Joe Average's viewpoint, not his own.

I was talking to someone that was shocked to find out that there are six airports in the Birmingham area, not just the one big commercial one.

"Why don't they just consolidate all of them and save tax dollars?"

Half an hour later of explaining general aviation and the different needs of pilots and safety concerns that would have to be addressed with putting all the different aircraft and pilots together he saw it my way - it's a function of education!

Heck, people are suprised like all get out that a guy like me (non-bizillionare) is a pilot and airplane owner (some assembly required). The perception is that GA is the sole realm of Lear Jets and WWII restorations.

[FloridaJohn]

That said, I can understand the non-aviators view point though, all the federal monies that go into public use airports comes mostly from tax payers that will never use them. I know that literally millions of dollars have been poured into the local airports surrounding me and they are all non-towered and seldom used, my view may not be popular but I don't see how it's fair to the masses.

You can tell "the masses" that most of the funding for airports, ATC, etc. does not come from the general fund. The large majority of it (95%+) comes for the aviation fuel tax and commercial airline passenger taxes. Most people do not pay anything for aviation if they are not using it. The only money for the FAA that comes from the general fund is the amount of money it takes to run the administrative functions of the FAA. Airport improvements, etc. is all coming from aviation fuel taxes.

[MEdwards]

Before this discussion gets shunted off into politics, we need to remember this is not the first time user fees have been proposed by an Administration in Washington. It's not even the tenth time. Every Administration for decades has trotted them out to some degree, and every time EAA and AOPA have had to mobilize and ask for money to beat them down in Congress. And every time so far they have been successful.

EAA and AOPA, and even city and state governments, have made estimates of the economic benefit of GA airports to local communities (like my own which is 50 miles from the nearest big airport) in real dollars, and it's significant. It's services, like UPS and Fedex mentioned above, and it's aviation businesses, sales, jobs, and taxes paid locally by all of those. We need to get those numbers out again and tell our nonflying friends about them. Can anybody point us all to some of that information?

[Racegunz]

He's writing from Joe Average's viewpoint, not his own.

.

Thanks for that frank.
I know this is a passionate subject sorry I seem "STUPID" (to some) but if you can't reasonably convince a fellow aviator that's on your side without reducing yourself to insults the battle is lost. I don't believe it's class warfare either. Convince me that the money spent is from aviation fuel taxes ( I will research it myself also) and if so that it is well spent on GA. I can guarantee you that the MILLIONS spent here locally did not come from local GA fuel taxes. I do agree that not many care if another's hobby is taxed.... well it's GA's turn. My other hobbies were/are heavily regulated and taxed, I doubt many aviators cared. Commercial passengers probably aren't supportive of paying taxes so Joe aviator can have basically free ATC services, especially if they are insulted/attacked by aviators that are flying 100k plus airplanes for recreation. So put your best foot forward and convince ME, then you might have a shot at the general populace. I personally think we will lose this battle shortly if not this time around, and I say "we" loosely, because the more I get involved with fellow aviators the more I'm deciding I don't have much in common with them.

[Racegunz]

It's services, like UPS and Fedex mentioned above, and it's aviation businesses, sales, jobs, and taxes paid locally by all of those. We need to get those numbers out again and tell our nonflying friends about them. Can anybody point us all to some of that information?

That is info that would be stepping in the right direction. Probably a hard sell here locally but at least a defensible position. Thanks for that.

[steveinindy]

Heck, people are suprised like all get out that a guy like me (non-bizillionare) is a pilot and airplane owner (some assembly required). The perception is that GA is the sole realm of Lear Jets and WWII restorations.

Then maybe we should stop showcasing warbirds at every airshow in the country. It's bad publicity.

[steveinindy]

That is info that would be stepping in the right direction. Probably a hard sell here locally but at least a defensible position. Thanks for that.

In one of the few moves I agree with from the complete blithering pithed moron that is the Mayor of Indianapolis, he is sort of pro-aviation because one of the few major employers that is not looking to leave town or downsize in this G-d forsaken backwater is FedEx. Hell, they are planning a fourth runway for the main airport here to deal with the expected increase in cargo traffic over the next few years.