Scooters/bikes should be allowed more places

[Eric Page]

If we can’t change the date to something more comfortable...

The 2020 cancellation presented an opportunity to do this, but it wasn't taken and likely wasn't even considered.

I attended AirVenture for two days in 2012 -- a pilgrimage of sorts -- when it was particularly hot. Wearing enough clothing not to be burned to a crisp made the heat unbearable, and my non-air-conditioned dorm room meant that I got little sleep. Apart from breakfast in the campus chow hall, the food was terrible. Frankly, it was an utterly miserable experience. I'd still like to fly my own homebuilt there one day, but I don't know if I can stand the heat, the crowds and sleeping on the ground.

Unfortunately, there aren't many better date options considering weather in Oshkosh. If you closely examine the charts here, it's clear that moving the date elsewhere on the spring-through-fall calendar could improve temps, but... Early Jun increases the chance of cloud cover and rain (Jun is, on average, the wettest month). Late Jun risks the grounds being a mud bog. Moving into Aug doesn't solve the heat problem, and earlier or later, e.g. May or Sep, would fix the daytime temps at the risk of more clouds and cold nights.

Perhaps the best compromise would be one month later: late Aug to early Sep. Better chance of lower daytime temps, still warm-to-cool at night, only slightly more cloudiness, lower chance of rain, and only a 45 min loss of daylight compared to the current dates. But, students begin moving into the UW dorms on Aug 30th (2023), so that's a non-starter.

I suggest the event be moved to western Washington. Keep the dates as-is, and you'll enjoy our glorious summer weather (as I type this at ~11:30am it's 70° and 55% humidity), no thunderstorms or high wind, and the food vendors will have salmon burgers. Win-win-win!

[turtle]

The distances from the entrance to the campers and auto parking is getting farther away.

For reference, we put just over 42 miles on our bikes over 6 days.

According to google, the Oshkosh area will make $170 million for the week. A few more trams staffed by almost free labor should pay for itself in short order in increased attendance. I know plenty of old aviators who have given up on ever attending again due to the distance and heat. Imagine an old jeep, cut in half with tram seats welded into the middle for warbirds. For cooling, rent some portable a/c units like the vendors do if you don't want the cost of maintaining it. Swamp coolers in every door of the hangars. How about those misting booths like they had at universal orlando? Get in, push a button, and get lightly misted head to toe with water. Plenty of cheap solutions that can help the attendees, but it seems spending a dime will get you fired from the EAA, but having to call emergency for someone who passed out, won't.

Even changes suggested by the boots on the ground get tied up in the bureaucracy for years. Just like the accident in ultralights. People from that area knew something like that was bound to happen. Well, throw it in the suggestion box and we'll look into it at some point. They're so focused about making room for more people, everything else is turning to crap. The night airshow, once a must see, was a carbon copy of last year right down to the music, except for less performers. Even comedians change up their act once in a while. Don't they realize people visit more than once?

[turtle]

Then there is the need for spare tractors and wagons to provide for the mechanical breakdowns and flat tires that occur every year.

How can you mitigate those problems? The wagons, fully loaded are still lightweight. There should be no flat tires doing the slow speeds the trams run unless the tires are old and thin. It's not like there's a bunch sharp things on the roads. If I can bounce a cheap old trailer 1500 miles down interstates and gravel roads to get there without a problem, a maintained, purpose built wagon shouldn't be failing over the course of a week. For the tractors, well, you're using the wrong color, lol.

at AirVenture it IS volunteers that make it all happen.

And it's a certain three letter organization that starts with E that prevents a lot from happening.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"the "Ultralight" express didn't stop anywhere near Ultralights, but at the northern boundary of the S40."

I worked the South Express for a couple shifts this year. The general consensus from passengers was quite favorable considering this was a new creation for 2023. On the run from Hangar B we DID stop at the N/E corner of Ultralights near Parker Johns BBQ and then carried on non-stop to the S40/Sea Plane Base bus stop. The return trip WAS non-stop to Hangar B per the signage there. Caveat - I can only speak to the Express trips on which I was the Conductor. There is always a learning curve when a new route is added so it is possible not every volunteer was aware of the UL stop. There was no signage in place for a UL stop this year. Perhaps next year EAA will put tram stop pylons in place?

I didn't work the North Express tram so I can't comment on how it was received, but I 'suspect' the South Express route will become a permanent fixture for 2024.

"It's not like there's a bunch sharp things on the roads"

Oh yes there were. One of our volunteers removed bent sharp scraps of metal he found at one of the tram terminals. I doubt it was a unique experience. 'Stuff' happens. As to a loaded tram being lightweight? 40 people x average "Wisconsin" weight passengers might stretch the definition of the word a wee bit. lol

"And it's a certain three letter organization that starts with E that prevents a lot from happening"

I am unaware of anything EAA does that prevents members from volunteering to work trams for the event? MY earlier comments refer to the labor force required to put a tram on the pavement.

[turtle]

Most of the volunteers do a great job in spite of the organization, not because of it. Most conversations with long time volunteers end up with "we've been trying for years to <insert simple solution to a multi-year problem>, but nothing changes". I could be wrong, but I thought you commented at one time about the glacial slow improvements to the trams and the org not listening to the people actually doing the job. And no, the org would never turn down free labor. Heck, I'd probably volunteer if the event was about airplanes and the membership and not about taking advantage of everyone for profit.

The vendors are unhappy. One was irate about having to walk in their entire display because they arrived with an evil, forbidden, u-haul trailer instead of using whatever middleman they were supposed to pay off. The rules they have to follow to maximize revenue are disturbing. (remember "water"gate?)

The members are unhappy. The site next to mine, whose first time was last year, asked if the night airshow was the same every year. The overnight rains that made the roads a muddy mess were made worse by the no-exceptions rule for checkout time. Can't wait for them to dry out a bit or you'll lose another days camping fee, so pedal to the metal. In the storms the cell and wifi service was unusable when you needed it most (not really their fault), and the loudspeakers didn't reach the whole campground (totally their fault). As mentioned, no real public places to cool off, little shade and seats, and expensive water. Having to travel across the whole airport in the early morning for tri-motor tickets for a flight in the afternoon that may get canceled (but you won't know until you hike all the way back there in the heat). 50/50 on actually getting on a warbirds tour after waiting in line for an hour. A lady with a cane who was told to walk around the entire apron instead of crossing at the entrance (even though the Corsair there was shut down, chocked, and had no pilot) had the best comment of the week - "why do they hate us so much?". From the pilots to the visitors to the vendors to the volunteers, everyone I talked to agreed this was the most unorganized event in years.

So many problems, so many simple, low cost solutions that could be implemented before next year if it wasn't for greed.

[azmedic85355]

Maybe it’s time to go back to being a members only event - or actually “sell out” at a certain number of tickets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[CHICAGORANDY]

"I thought you commented at one time about the glacial slow improvements to the trams and the org not listening to the people actually doing the job"

Indeed I did. I once wanted specific turn-around areas so the Yellow/Red and Yellow/Blue trams could exchange passengers off the main road and folks could have access to the Scholler buses etc. I also wanted them to make large signs on both sides of the roads indicating the tram stops, color coded to the routes with signage indicating what the next stop on that route would be. This year I did note blue water fountains where guests could refill water bottles for free as well as the potable water trailers. they did add two new routes I assume based on previous attendee comments. They have expanded airplane camping areas.

I suppose I've come to accept that change comes slowly to large organizations, some folks will always be unhappy with decisions made, and most everything involved with AirVenture, only a 7 day event, gets weighed against a cost/benefit analysis. I remain thrilled beyond belief that I'm not in charge stuck making those decisions. In my dotage (74 and retired) I recognize that life is a series of choices. I booked my motel room for my 9 day stay in 2024 before I checked out this year. See you there ....... or not.

Almost forgot - I now always try to turn a negative into a positive - my girlfriend was feeling ill, went to the hospital and they said she had worms..... so I took her fishin'.

[keen9]

I thought the trams were much improved this year. The "between the ends" stops are always going to be an issue, but even that seemed a bit better. The south end is still where some work needs to be done, maybe another split in routes. If staffing is really the issue, given the size of the grounds, maybe it is time to hire tram operations employees if we can't get sufficient volunteers.

Also, while the middle areas definitely still need fewer vehicles, there could be a case to be made for bikes and scooters in the further out regions. It would need some planning and hard enforcement, so it would be a big job to implement.

[Saras 182]

I am totally shocked by these responses. But it occurs to me that many people just walk straight into the air show at the flight line and never move. I can't say that I have ever done that. I walk through all the hangars, usually more than once. I walk to the vintage area and stol area. Walk over to warbirds. I occasionally make a loop through the fly market. I normally spend the whole week, and still miss something. Even after the first day I am exhausted. But yet I have 6 more days left. The EAA website itself suggests to bring multiple pairs of shoes. To hear so many people don't want to make it easier to check out all Airventure has to offer,, is very surprising.

I made clear that I wasn't saying to allow scooters everywhere.. but not allowing them in homebuilt camping, but allowing them in n40 camping or s40 camping is ridiculous.
The trolleys or trams are useless. They never slow down for you to get on. And you don't know where they are going to or coming from anyways. And if you did, there aren't enough of them. I have been going to airventure for five years (first year flying in) and have never used them once or even know of anyone that has used them. We all normally walk 5-10miles each day, according to the phones.. which obviously can be highly inaccurate.

At the very least, how about getting some more benches. Can we at least all agree that some more benches would be nice.

[Auburntsts]

The trams have specific stops which are clearly marked by big signs that say “TRAM”. You know there’s a Tram map, right? I’m sorry but I’m also in the camp of not allowing any additional vehicles into the main show area than they already do. Also I’m not sure they actually condone bikes in N40, I think they just don’t make a big deal about it.