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Thread: Why doesnít EAA allow Fifi and other Warbirds to Charge for rides?

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y11JzXJdP4E Here’s the video Hal. Clearly we have to do everything we can to resolve this. Obviously Oshkosh is where Fifi, Doc, Diamond Lil, Witchcraft (when she becomes available again) and every other WWII Warbird on the planet needs to be. Whatever the issues are between the organizations, we have to work them out for the benefit of everyone. As I said before, it’s just too important.
    EAA's responsibility is to the rank and file at EAA. Not to help the CAF make money or to help the CAF with its B-29 ride program. If the CAF wants to put on a WWII history demonstration, they can fly Fifi over the grounds almost any time other than during the daily airshow. Alternately, the CAF can park the airplane on Boeing Square all week and charge for tours. They have lots of options if giving a history lesson is the objective.

    If making money for the CAF is the objective, well, cycling Fifi every hour or so doesn't really fit with the fly-in. Think about the 5 or 10 minutes of lost runway time every time it takes off or lands and the impact that would have on 10,000+ arrivals and departures. Beyond that, and as I stated previously, there is nowhere on the grounds (other than tossing someone else off the grounds) where you could sequester Fifi to give rides. A B-29 ride program just isn't a fit at Airventure, regardless of how or why some Youtuber pitches the idea.

  2. #12

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    I’m not suggesting that they should necessarily. But some kind of reasonable arrangement needs to be worked out so we don’t go years without the B-29’s at Oshkosh. It’s all about working together so all parties involved can benefit. Oshkosh is the biggest and best Airshow on the planet. It literally draws 600,000+ people every year. The B-29’s represent the Crown Jewels of all the Warbirds. Their impact and reach is greater then anything else when it comes to educating our kids about WWII.

    In 2017 when Fifi and Doc were at the show, my nephews got the chance to see them both up close and personal. They heard their engines and they saw them fly. They heard Danny on the PA System telling the History of WWII and the B-29. The impact that experience had on them was not something a classroom could ever offer. In fact when the oldest went back to school that fall, he had to correct his teacher when she was telling the class that a B-52 Dropped the Atomic Bombs on Japan. He told her it was the B-29 and not a B-52 that had dropped the bombs and she said to him- “How would you have any idea”. His response- “I’ve been to Oshkosh and sat in the B-29 myself and heard directly from an actual B-29 Pilot who knew Paul Tibbets himself”. So the impact of having the B-29’s at Oshkosh can’t be understated. They are beyond important as story tellers, history protectors and educators. We need to value them as such. In today’s day and age with all the disinformation, lies, Holocaust deniers and the like, now more then ever we must be doing everything we can to protect our history so we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past. That mission starts with the B-29’s.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
    EAA's responsibility is to the rank and file at EAA. Not to help the CAF make money or to help the CAF with its B-29 ride program. If the CAF wants to put on a WWII history demonstration, they can fly Fifi over the grounds almost any time other than during the daily airshow. Alternately, the CAF can park the airplane on Boeing Square all week and charge for tours. They have lots of options if giving a history lesson is the objective.

    If making money for the CAF is the objective, well, cycling Fifi every hour or so doesn't really fit with the fly-in. Think about the 5 or 10 minutes of lost runway time every time it takes off or lands and the impact that would have on 10,000+ arrivals and departures. Beyond that, and as I stated previously, there is nowhere on the grounds (other than tossing someone else off the grounds) where you could sequester Fifi to give rides. A B-29 ride program just isn't a fit at Airventure, regardless of how or why some Youtuber pitches the idea.
    Again Kyle- as I’ve already stated- Appleton is the location that rides are staged from. Not Oshkosh. No one is contending that the CAF or anyone else should be giving rides from Wittman Field. That clearly does not work logistically. As I’ve already stated.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    Again Kyle- as I’ve already stated- Appleton is the location that rides are staged from. Not Oshkosh. No one is contending that the CAF or anyone else should be giving rides from Wittman Field. That clearly does not work logistically. As I’ve already stated.
    You've stated multiple times in the thread (Post 1 and Post 12, for example) that your objective is to have the B-29 at Oshkosh. I'm sure EAA would welcome the B-29 on Boeing Square (static or maybe flying during the warbird show). You've also stated that you want the B-29 to be able to give rides from Appleton. Hal Bryan explicitly stated in Post 6 in the thread that the B-29 would be welcome to do that.

    So both of your stated wants can be satisfied. But you're not satisfied.

    Why?

  5. #15

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    My objective is to have both B-29’s at Oshkosh. We have a fiduciary responsibility to our kids to educate them on our history. Airventure brings history alive for our kids so they’re actually interested in it and want to learn all they can about WWII. The B-29’s are the tool to facilitate that learning. This isn’t Rocket Science. This is about doing the right thing. It’s about coming to a reasonable solution to ensure the mightiest of all the Warbirds are represented at the greatest air show on earth every year. Most importantly however it’s about honoring our WWII Veterans by not letting their courage and sacrifice be forgotten by the younger generations.

    Do you have any idea as to the operating costs of the B-29’s? I’ll give you a clue- it’s a ton. They burn 500 Gallons of Fuel every hour alone. Just getting them to Oshkosh is a major financial hurdle. Not to mention everything else that goes in to maintaining, storing, insuring and the like. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that it’s going to take more then Boeing Square Tours to make it Financially Prudent for them to come. It isn’t about making money. It’s about covering basic costs. I’m not a CAF member or affiliated with them in any way. But I understand basic business practices and I can tell you for sure they’re not coming if they’re under water right out of the gate.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    My objective is to have both B-29’s at Oshkosh. We have a fiduciary responsibility to our kids to educate them on our history.
    EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities? Explain that one to me. "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other." *Solely* in the interest of another.

    And if there is, somehow, a fiduciary responsibility to educate kids on history...how does that translate to hosting one specific aircraft?

    I just don't understand how EAA supposedly prevents the CAF from operating from an entirely different airport, not under their control.

    Ron Wanttaja

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities? Explain that one to me. "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other." *Solely* in the interest of another.

    And if there is, somehow, a fiduciary responsibility to educate kids on history...how does that translate to hosting one specific aircraft?

    I just don't understand how EAA supposedly prevents the CAF from operating from an entirely different airport, not under their control.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Did I say that the EAA has a Fiduciary Responsibility to the CAF? I’m pretty sure I don’t remember saying that. I don’t remember saying that because I never said it. I said we have a Fiduciary Responsibility to our Kids to educate them about WWII so we don’t repeat the Mistakes of our Past. If you’re going to quote what I say, you should probably make an effort to be accurate. You know, because FACTS MATTER.

    The B-29’s are the best tool we have in our Arsenal in educating our Kids about WWII. They represent some of America’s Bravest and most skilled Pilots and Aircrews of the War. They Represent what we can do as a nation if we stand up and work together for a common goal. No matter what the odds, by working together we can accomplish anything we put our minds to. Most importantly however is that They represent what man is capable of doing to other human beings. It’s absolutely vital that we don’t repeat the mistakes of our past and the only way we do that is by getting our kids interested enough in WWII history that they actually want to learn about it. The B-29’s are the best story tellers we have in terms of WWII History. They command attention unlike any other WWII Warbird in existence. That’s what it takes to get kids interested and keep them engaged. And that’s precisely why their attendance at Oshkosh matters. They honor our Veterans. They honor those who are buried in every Veteran Cemetery around the world and they tell the story of WWII better than anyone else.

    We have kids around our Country doing Heil Hitler Salutes. We have kids expressing interest and support for Nazism. Hate crimes are going up across the board. If we can get through to our kids the importance and lessons learned from our experiences in WWII, we can put an end to this. There are almost 10,000 American Service Personnel Buried at the Normandy American Cemetery in Colleville-sur-Mer, France. I can guarantee you that they would be absolutely ashamed and astounded knowing that there are kids in America today doing Heil Hitler Salutes. So let’s work together in honoring their legacy by ensuring we are using every tool in our Arsenal to educate our kids.

    So I ask you Ron- What’s more important- Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friend’s of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29’s are represented at Oshkosh every year to help in the Mission of educating our kids- Or just sitting around bickering about who should be responsible for footing the bill? I would respectfully submit to you it’s the education mission that matters most.
    Last edited by Mark17; 08-04-2021 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    ...Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friendís of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29ís are represented at Oshkosh every year...
    There's nothing for those organizations to work together to resolve. EAA is not preventing either organization from bringing their B-29 to Oshkosh. It is the decision solely of the operator to put them at ATW to give rides throughout the week or put them on the ground at OSH for display and/or in the airshow. If they decide to even come at all. That's their choice.

    There is no issue here. The statements made in the YouTube video are baseless and have been refuted here by Hal's statement. If you want CAF or FoD to put a B-29 at OSH next year, you'd want to kindly contact them and provide your feedback.

  9. #19
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    Did I say that the EAA has a Fiduciary Responsibility to the CAF? Iím pretty sure I donít remember saying that. I donít remember saying that because I never said it. I said we have a Fiduciary Responsibility to our Kids to educate them about WWII so we donít repeat the Mistakes of our Past. If youíre going to quote what I say, you should probably make an effort to be accurate. You know, because FACTS MATTER.
    Indeed. So let's review what *I* said: "EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities?" I didn't say the EAA owes a responsibility to the CAF... just that you are claiming that they MUST host the CAF B-29 to meet some notional fiduciary responsibility.

    Let's review, again, what fiduciary responsibility means: "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other."

    Again, *solely* in the interest of another. In other words, the financial status of the EAA shouldn't matter. The smooth running of AirVenture shouldn't matter. The interruption of air traffic to shoehorn shouldn't matter.

    What you're basically saying that every mom and pop aviation museum in the US is failing its fiduciary duty by NOT having a B-29 on display.

    Hmmmm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    The B-29ís are the best tool we have in our Arsenal in educating our Kids about WWII.
    Mmmmm, certainly open for argument there. 8th Bomber Command/8th Air Force suffered half of the entire casualties in the Army Air Forces during WWII. Can't find similar statistics for 20th Air Force, but the 8th had been in operation for 18 months before it was even formed. The B-29's a significant airplane, but the thing it's known most for is carrying the bombs that hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki. *I* personally don't have a problem with that, but many people do. This makes the B-29 problematic as a symbol. The conversation thus slides from the heroism of the crews to the politics of nuclear war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    So I ask you Ron- Whatís more important- Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friendís of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29ís are represented at Oshkosh every year to help in the Mission of educating our kids- Or just sitting around bickering about who should be responsible for footing the bill? I would respectfully submit to you itís the education mission that matters most.
    Sure, it's easy arguing about how to spend someone ELSE'S money.

    How many Young Eagles flights can be flown for one hour of B-29 operations? Which will entice more kids to consider aviation, watching old folks fly in a B-29 or getting their own ride in a 172?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
    You hit it on the head Kyle with the rides being staged from Appleton. In years past, thatís exactly where the B-29ís have staged from. But from the video I watched, apparently EAA is not allowing Fifi to do that either.
    Did you miss Hal's post? It's basically saying the video you referenced was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Bryan View Post
    The CAF is welcome to provide flight experiences with FIFI out of Appleton just as other groups do, such as Docís Friends with their B-29 and Yankee Lady this year with the B-17. Those operations are held in Appleton because of the air traffic in Oshkosh throughout the day, and the towerís ability there to slot them in between the commercial traffic. It would be much more difficult to do that in Oshkosh during the fly-in. There is nothing stopping any group from providing those flights up there.

    So, whoever told you that we "don't allow" the CAF to charge for rides was wholly mistaken.
    Now...why does the video make the statement that it does? What's the basis for the claim?

    Ron Wanttaja

  10. #20

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    1) I don’t need a history lesson on the 8th Air Force in Europe. My Grandpa flew with the 8th and I’m well aware of their amazing achievements.

    2) This is all about putting our kids first by getting through to them in a way that they can appreciate and understand. Park a B-29 and a B-17 on the ramp at Oshkosh and see which aircraft garners more of their attention.

    3) Obviously if the largest Airshow in the world is going on and the *TWO* Remaining Airworthy B-29’s in the World are not in attendance, that’s a problem. Oshkosh is incomplete without them.

    4) As I stated in my previous post in regard to the B-29 and it’s role in history: “Most importantly however is that They represent what man is capable of doing to other human beings. It’s absolutely vital that we don’t repeat the mistakes of our past and the only way we do that is by getting our kids interested enough in WWII history that they actually want to learn about it”.

    This isn’t about the young eagles program which is absolutely awesome and probably the best program EAA offers. This is about educating our kids on the lessons of WWII so we never repeat the atrocities that were committed. The B-29 gets that mission done because it captures their attention unlike any other WWII Aircraft. Anyone who was at Oshkosh in 2017 can attest to just how awe inspiring having Fifi and Doc there together was. It was a once in lifetime moment that we have the power to repeat every year if we choose to do so. It’s up to us to let the organizations know what’s important to us and what we would like to see at Oshkosh. For me, I want Fifi and Doc back for all the reasons outlined above.

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