What are we expected to have in the way of a POH? In my specific case, it's a very simple airplane: Single place, VW powered, Day VFR, taildragger. Thanks.
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What are we expected to have in the way of a POH? In my specific case, it's a very simple airplane: Single place, VW powered, Day VFR, taildragger. Thanks.
Aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate are not required to have a POH. But there is no reason you can't produce a POH if you wish after you have test flown the aircraft and collected data. It might be helpful to a new owner provided the numbers in the POH are still valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by N404CX
Interesting Sam, I just had my airworthiness inspection today and the DAR wanted to see it. Wasn't a problem because I had one, wonder what he would have said/done if I didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
You'd probably be advised to show that any necessary operating limits are reflected somewhere (panel placards, etc...).
I believe these are called Operating Limitation on a Home built not POH.
MY A&P wanted to see my operating limitations, so I pulled the paper work out of its holder. When we looked at them no one filled in any of the information. No stall speeds or anything was filled out. So I found the 3 ring binder I had for this airplane and copied all this info form that. Now is it correct, I doubt it, but it is posted on my panel.
When my A&P told me he wanted this posted on the panel I said, why? Only I fly this airplane. I have been flying this plane without this info on my panel, why do I need it? He said for safety and the FAA.
I do a lot of things for safety and I see no benefit in terms of safety by having this info on my panel, and if anyone but me is flying this airplane it was stolen for no one flies my airplane. He said how do you know the speeds this airplane flies at. I handed him the three ring binder and said look for yourself. I will never fly over VNE. The rest I fly by seat of pants. I need no ASI to fly these little planes. What I need is my butt for these are flown by seat of pants and stick and rudder.
One reason they are so much fun to fly, everyone else can keep the 172's and such. I love my EAB.
Tony.
I am a loser...Know how I know.....Lottery tells me ever day........
Several problems here. First, a POH IS NOT REQUIRED PER REGULATION. Your DAR is making up rules as he goes......Quote:
Originally Posted by gbrasch
Second...how can you create a POH with stall speeds, etc, etc, when the plane hasn't even flown???????
Type certificated aircraft have a POH because they are built exactly the same way as the conforming test article. But every experimental aircraft (E-LSA excepted) is unique.
Your DAR may have wanted to see a POH (even though there is no way to make a valid one), but he can't require it for issuing the Experimental Airworthiness Certificate.
Op Lims does not contain performance information. It is strictly for stating what is required for legally operating the aircraft per its registration.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
:confused::confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
Mine do, but no one put anything in those spots, so not real sure what OP's you speak of. But Mine do. I believe this is why they call them " Operating Limitations ".
Thanks Sam, I agree. I made my POH from figures from Van's on my model. I am sure I will be updating it for my airplane as I flight test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
I am wondering it you have a document somebody created in place of the op lims that were issued with the airworthiness certificate. The operating limitations are part of the required documentation along with the airworthiness certificate. The op lims are written strictly according to guidelines set for by the FAA, and DARs have to follow them.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
Performance data is not a part of the FAA's op lims.....it can't be because the aircraft hasn't flown at the time the airworthiness cert and op lims is issued.
Sam, my FAA-standard operating limitations do indeed include performance data. Maybe not the full set in your eyes, but I must document Vso, Vx, Vy, and Weight/CG numbers in my certification when I finished Phase 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
Also, Sonex LLC provides a "Flight Manual" with their kits, which for all intents and purposes contains most of the same material that could be contained in a POH. The builder, of course, my "fill in the blanks" with data obtained/calculated from flight test Phase 1 activities.
Carl,Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlOrton
I'm curious--is your aircraft E-AB or E-LSA?
There have been changes in Op Lims over the years, looks like there may be some Op Lims out there different from the ones I've always seen. Here are a couple of useful links:
An article by Joe Norris, EAA: http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/arti...01_darside.asp
An example of the exact wording that has historically been used for Op Lims: http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-319-FAR.shtml
But I did find this version of the Op Lims which must be the ones being referred to with various speeds: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...52288139,d.dmg
By the way, if your Op Lims have the speed fields, and they have not been recorded in the aircraft logs along with the correct wording for the release from Phase 1, the aircraft is still in Phase 1 and must be confined to Phase 1 restrictions!
Interesting.
Hi, Sam;
I'm an E/AB. Received AW in June 2012. The speed fields are part of para 4 in Phase 1 limitations. Exact quote:
4. All test flights, as a minimum, must be conducted under day VFR only. Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC 90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with 14CFR 91.391(b). Compliance with 14CFR 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following oar a similarly worded statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso __________, Vx _________, and Vy ______, and the weight _______ and CG location _______ at which they were obtained."
PS: Yes, these are recorded in the aircraft log book, so I am in Phase II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
The airplane has had its 40 hrs flown off and signed. Its been inspected by the FAA since I have owned it and they say its all been done and logged, my logs have been looked over really good by those whom really care what they say. Both the inspectors could not understand how this was missed. They told me to fly her as I have been according to the three ring binder info and that it would be best if I did indeed find these numbers.
But she has indeed been flown off and signed in log book.
Any chance on you putting up a copy of your ops limit booklet?
At the risk of beating this dead horse to a pulp....one more clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
The Operating Limitations is not a booklet. It is a two or three page document (mine are two pages, sounds like it may include a few more paragraphs now) that MUST be in the aircraft along with the airworthiness certificate, certificate of registration and weight/balance document. The Op Lims is part of the Airworthiness Certificate and each is worthless without the other!
The Operating Limitations doc is issued by the DAR and can not be modified by the holder of the airworthiness certificate. It is worded according to the strict guidelines the DAR must follow. If info about V-speeds is included in an Ops Lims, that info is to be written not on the Ops Lims doc, but included in the very specifically worded endorsement entered in the aircraft logs at the end of Phase One testing.
Yep. FAA Order 8130.2, look it up yussef. Or see:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
http://www.faa-aircraft-certificatio...mitations.html
D'oh!
I meant the POH.