Still not completely clear
There's unclear language in the Proposed Rule in the Federal Register that still has me uneasy that the FAA MIGHT possibly try to impose a 10,000' cap on aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems and without ADS-B out throughout the 30 nm circles (mode C veils essentially), though I don't think that that is REALLY the intent:
From the same link as above, page 56958 --
"This proposal would permit aircraft not originally certificated with an electrical system or not subsequently certified with such a system installed(such as a balloon or glider) to conduct operations without ADS–B Out in the airspace within 30 NM of an airport listed in part 91 appendix D if the operations are conducted: (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and (2) below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
I'm still hoping, and expecting, that the FAA will construe the restrictions stated in 91.255(e)(2) to apply ONLY within the lateral boundaries of (i.e. within, above, or below) Class B or C airspace. So that there is no blanket cap on aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems or ADS-B-out exceeding 10,000' within the 30-nm circles. All other interpretations are somewhat problematic and self-conflicting, as explored in the first post on this thread. But the situation is not crystal-clear-- one might say the problem is "inadequately constrained"-- the regs are not written well enough to give a clear answer.
Similar to transponder rules -- mostly
Ok, I guess I hadn't reviewed the transponder rules for a long time. We do see some similar language in FAR 91.115, which helps to see where they got the language for FAR 91.225, and how they might try to apply it.
There's never been a claim that any bit of Class B or C airspace in a 30-mile Mode C circle imposes a cap at the altitude of the ceiling of that B or C airspace throughout the entire 30-nm circle for an aircraft with no transponder and no engine-driven electrical system, correct?
The bit about "below 10,000' MSL" in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) seems completely irrelevant because 91.215(b)(2) doesn't apply above 10,000' MSL anyway.
So in essence, 91.215 (b) (3)(ii) is construed to ONLY apply within the lateral limits of (i.e. within, above, or below) Class B or C airspace, right? If so that is reassuring and suggests that the same will be construed of 91.255(e)(2).
Here it is below:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted -
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
New ADS-B regs ARE more restrictive than xponder regs for a/c w/o electrical systems
Quote:
Originally Posted by
champ driver
The way I've read the regs are that if you are exempt from the transponder in that particular airspace, then you are also exempt from the same airspace concerning ADSB.
That means you can fly your Cub in the mode C Veil without a transponder and ADSB, but not actually in Class B or C airspace.
Remember Class B, and the Veil that goes with it are two separate airspaces, and with different requirements.
As I'm now reading the regs, you are right for the most part, except that there is a difference in the construction of FAR 91.215 (transponders) and FAR 91.225 (ADS-B-out) that will have the following consequence:
Aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems and without ADS-B-out will be barred from flying above ANY underlying Class B or Class C airspace, AT ANY ALTITUDE.
Currently, aircraft without electric-engine-driven electrical systems and without transponders are barred from flying above underlying Class B or Class C airspace only up to 10,000' MSL.
Also, under the new rules aircraft with no electrical system and no ADS-B-out won't be able to fly above 10,000' MSL under a Class B or C shelf. The only place this would be an issue appears to under some outlying Class B airspace near KSLC.
I've put too many words into this topic already; I'll let you (everyone) look over the regs and puzzle out why I came to the above conclusions.
I'll just say that it's a function of FAR 91.225(e)(2) and how it appears to be intended to interact with the rest of the regulation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
All this is based on the assumption that both 91.215(b)(3)(ii) and 91.255(e)(2) are construed to apply ONLY within the lateral limits (i.e. within, above, or below) Class B or Class C airspace. This is an assumption that seems reasonable and realistic and consistent with how the FAA has treated the existing transponder regs -- but it is also the assumption that is most favorable to aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems. Any other interpretation of these rules might impose considerably more severe restrictions on where aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems and without ADS-B-out may fly.
The truth is that the "or below 10,000' MSL" clause in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) seems utterly useless. It seems to have no application whatsoever. Yet the fact that it was carried over into 91.255(e)(2) definitely complicates the interpretation of this regulation.
Sorry it took so long to take to this point of clarity on the how the regs work-- the language is kind of complicated.
It's possible that even the FAA hasn't really figured this out. I.e., your mileage may (will) vary, if you go ask your local FSDO.
Steve
