Printable View
I have a Taylorcraft with an 80 hp. The problem is the aircraft floats like hell and with 800 ft of runway I am looking to install an airbrake of this aircraft. Don,t need an stc as this is classified under the ultra light category. Any help would be appreciated as for info and details on how to do it. Rick Cartier
Can you reduce your engine's idle RPM? That's a heck of a free airbrake.
What did you receive your training in and how much time do you have in the Taylorcraft?Quote:
The problem is the aircraft floats like hell
All of the Taylorcraft series (at least the common ones) are very lightly wing loaded which is going to make them "float" especially in the hands of a pilot who is not used to it. A pilot transitioning from say a 152 is going to find that a Taylor L-2 Grasshopper floats a lot more because of the difference in wing loading (7 something (depending on the specific model) vs 10.5). Coming from a 172 is going to be even more of a chance because the wing loading in a Grasshopper is going to be roughly half that of a fully loaded 172. The 172 is a brick by comparison.
My advice: unless either you're an aerodynamicist or have ready access to one, don't even try it. It is very easy to cause far more problems (read as: producing a Taylorcraft lawn dart) than you solve with such an approach.Quote:
Any help would be appreciated as for info and details on how to do it.
That was my thought. Most of the problems I have seen with "floating" results from either excessive speed on the approach or other poor technique on the part of the pilot. This isn't a slight or anything but just rather a general observation. The best way to judge if an engineering solution to a problem is needed is to look at what the other pilots of the same type are doing. If they aren't fitting speed brakes (and if they were, chances are you wouldn't have to ask about this), then chances are the problem isn't inherently with the aircraft but with the way it is being flown. Given that the designs have changed very little for the most part since they were introduced in the 1930s and 1940s, that should tell you something about the need for a speed brake.Quote:
Can you reduce your engine's idle RPM? That's a heck of a free airbrake.
I thought most Taylorcraft was well above the weight restriction- even when empty- for an ultralight. Which model are you talking about? You might want to double check that you mean UL and not either light sport aircraft. The last thing you want to do is get yourself in trouble or get the aircraft grounded.Quote:
Don,t need an stc as this is classified under the ultra light category.
Taylorcrafts are most certainly Light Sport and you can't just start bolting stuff on willy nilly.
As noted above, the problem is likely pilot technique and experience, not the airplane. We see a lot of pilots who are reluctant to fly the airplane as slow as it can. And hence they take 2000' or more to land an airplane that can happily get down and stopped in 800' when flown by the published numbers.
I suggest that rather than spend money on changing the airplane, spend the money on gas an an individual in the other seat who has say 500hrs of T-cart time.
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS
Not aware of any such mods Rick. What country is your plane registered in to be classified as "ultralight"?Quote:
Originally Posted by richard cartier
I had sort of the opposite problem when I went back to Cessnas and Pipers after quite a while on ultralights. I didn't find myself trying to fly the aircraft too slowly (since I am loathe to the idea of flying by "feel") but it sure felt like I was hauling butt down final even though I wasn't going very fast at all. LOLQuote:
We see a lot of pilots who are reluctant to fly the airplane as slow as it can.
nQuote:
Originally Posted by WLIU
Richard, I have not flown a Taylorcraft, but here is the way I have done it for other similar airplanes. First, find the stall speed, VSo. Now you can look in a book or ask another Taylorcraft pilot, but a better way and one that will be specific to your plane is to go up nice and high and do a few stalls. Find the power off stall speed, gear and flaps (if any) down, and remember the carb heat.
Let's say it is 40 mph, then your speed turning final can be 52 mph which is 1.3 x VSo, and not any more. As you get to the runway slow a little more to 48 mph or 1.2 x VSo. That should be adequate for control and allow a flare,but not have much float.
If you learned to fly in 172 or something with big flaps, this may seem strange to you, and take some getting used to. Just be careful, 800 ft is a very small runway, even for that light a plane. You may want to practice on a bigger strip first.
My Cub stalls at 38 mph, power off . If I drag it in with just a trickle of power, the stall speed is below the last figures on the airspeed indicator. I use 50 mph on final as 1.3 and make a full stall 3 point landing, no trouble stoppping in a few hundred feet after touchdown, with light braking, as the brakes are not much anyway, but at 30 mph and 750 llbs, not much is needed.
Very interesting discussion. I apologize to the originator for this being not really an answer but a tangential question. As one responder suggested, ask some experienced 80 hp T-Craft drivers about this and what they suggest about this "floating" tendacy. Some reasonable responses discussed more or less standard techniques for landing speed control (stall speed, 1.3 Vso etc.) and someone also said to fly with a CFI, both good ideas but make sure the CFI has lots of time in both tailwheelers and in type (Taylorcraft) instruction. My request is to see some response from those 500+ hr Taylorcraft pilots to respond and, in particular, their own reflections not only on an 800 ft runway but what their ideas of what is a minimum runway length and angle of descent for performance on a short runway landing with this bird ? Also, I would like to hear from pilots who are regularly making this use of the plane not just stories about "once upon a time........"EDGEFLY
I have another question. Since you originally posted that your Tcraft was an "ultralight", are you flying it without a certificate/license of some sort? How is it registered? Does it have an "N" number?
The Taylorcraft was originally from the states but when it was imported here in Canada it meets the ultra-light category because of the weight. We can do our own maintanance and enter it in a log book. There are quite a few taylorcraft,s here in Canada under this category.Rick
Ah...that's right. You guys have an ultralight category that is akin to the American LSA category. I totally blanked on that. *facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by richard cartier
The Taylorcraft TG-6 glider and L-2M tandem had spoilers. There were about 5 inches wide and spanned the 3 rib bays inboard of the ailerons. The hinge was at the front spar and they popped up via bellcranks mounted on the spar with a common rod driving all 3. The wing was virtually identical to the side-by-side models but with wooden ribs so the aerodynamic effect should be the same. I've got a L-2 project that was converted from a TG-6 so I know where and how they were mounted but I've never flown with them. You could seek out some L-2M owners that have spoilers (not all do) and see what their experience is. I had a BC12D 30+ years ago and remember getting in and out of 800 ft patches at sea level. That was with a 65hp but it's way too long ago to provide any guidance.
I have a whole hour of dual in a T-craft, so I'm a long way from being an expert. But as a long dormant CFII, I suggest that your floating is likely from too quick an approach speed. A Google search shows that the T-craft's stall speed is 35-40 mph, which means to me that your final approach speed should be around 45-55 mph--and I would choose the lower end of that range. Or you can use the mountain flyer's method, which is to get up to a safe altitude, find the indicated stall speed, and multiply that by 1.3, and then use that as your indicated approach speed. It won't be perfectly accurate, but it'll be close enough and safe to use. And I'll bet your floating will be a thing of the past.
Cary
Just a thought. Could you be referring to the spoiler that some of the Taylorcraft L-2s had? I certainly don't recommend trying to install one in an airplane not designed for it. The other comments are to the point. Much better to get some instruction and practice.
If I remember correctly- as there were beers involved- a WWII L-2 grasshopper pilot that I met mentioned nothing about using a spoiler during shortfield landings and I had a long talk with him about extreme short field operations for medical evacuation and resupply specifically asking about the techniques involved. His comment about how to best do it was to fly it "a couple knots" above stall and land uphill. This came with the caveat that it should only be done when staying in the air is more dangerous than getting on the ground (in other words, when people are trying to shoot you down, i.e., he would not do it as a civilian).Quote:
Could you be referring to the spoiler that some of the Taylorcraft L-2s had?
One of the best stories he had to tell was about hauling whole blood in glass bottles to the forward hospital units. Apparently some German took a pot shot at his plane. He heard the bullets hit the plane and the next thing he knows he's covered in blood. Upon landing the medics stripped him down to find no injuries only to realize that all the blood had come from a shattered bottle.
Also, i've seen quite a few vintage L-2s from that time frame and I can't recall any of them still having a spoiler still installed. It could be a selection bias though or something similar....
I am one of those 500+ hour Taylorcraft pilots. I agree with the advice given above about getting some dual from an experienced Taylorcraft instructor. An 800 foot runway for a Taylorcraft is very doable if there are not extenuating factors, such as soft mushy ground, tall grass, obstacles, high density altitude, or a steep gradient.
I regularly land at my home airport on a paved runway with no obstructions in less than 200 feet. That is with no one else in the plane but me and less than half fuel. Depending on the density altitude, I can take off in about 300 feet under the same circumstances. That is with the original A65 engine and 6.00 X 6 tires.
The technique I use for short field landings is to slow down well before entering the flare. As you may know, when in ground effect induced drag is reduced. If the drag is reduced, you are going to decelerate slower. Meaning more runway will go by before you slow down to landing speed. So you need to arrive at the runway already slowed to the speed you will actually touch down at. For my BC12D with it’s 65hp engine, I reduce to about 1300 rpm on downwind and allow the airspeed to slow to about 65 mph indicated. At 65 indicated and 1300 rpm, I will descend at about 400 feet per minute. On base I ease the nose up to slow to 60 mph indicated and adjust rpm to maintain the descent. Turning final I raise the nose a little more to about 55. At this point with my left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle, I am adjusting airspeed with my left hand and altitude with my right. I like to slow to about 50 on short final. I like to maintain 50 indicated until I am just over any obstacles, or the runway is about to disappear under the top of the cowl. Then I reduce power by about a ¼ of an inch of throttle. I don’t look at the tach or airspeed at this point. I am flying by feel. If I am sinking to fast, I add a touch of throttle back in. Too high, reduce throttle just a hair. I can judge the airspeed by the feel on the yoke. My last trim setting was on base at 60 mph. When you are over the runway with the correct sink rate, just pull the throttle ALL THE WAY OFF just before you touch down and apply a slight increase in back pressure on the yoke. For short field you are not trying for a grease job touch down. It is more important to get it down. If you are dropping in from too high, just delay the power reduction.
Once you practice enough you will know the feel it takes for each airspeed below that. And that is the secret to making really short landings in almost any airplane, PRACTICE. Find a runway with a comfortable length and practice short field landings on it before you try it on an actual short field. Also practice doing a go around and don’t hesitate to use one if things get uncomfortable.
Might I suggest you go to the Taylorcraft link below and do a search there on slipping and or slow flight. A very nice bunch of people there will jump in to help you with suggestions on technique.
http://vb.taylorcraft.org/forum.php
Did you get that information about an stc from the FAA? No 80 horse Taylorcraft is classified under the ultralight category. It is a certified aircraft no matter how it is used. It is legal to fly it with a "light sport" license or a regular license with a driver's license medical. However, the aircraft itself is still a certified aircraft. It must be annualed by an IA and modifications require an STC or a field mod.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard cartier
That being said, if it is an L2 Taylorcraft it originally had spoilers, which are very effective at canceling float.
Having flow Taylorcraft's of all models many many hours over many many years, I can say without reserve, that the Taylorcraft does NOT float UNLESS you are flying too fast on your final approach. The Taylorcraft is a surprisingly clean airplane and loses speed very slowly once you are into ground effect. You have to get rid of your excess airspeed before you round out and attempt to flare. As I recall, depending on how much you and your passenger weigh, you want to come over the fence with most B series Taylorcraft at no more than 55 mph. At 60 mph on a hot summer day with a 5000 foot asphalt runway you can float right off the far end. :-) The L2 or D model Taylorcraft are heavier and will want to come over the fence at about 60 instead of 55. Once again, excess airspeed will take a LONG time to bleed off if you are a bit too fast.
Rather than destroy you airplane with illegal modifications, you would be better advised to find a good old timer taildragger CFI and get some dual on landing the T-Cart.
SPEED BRAKE ON A TAYLORCRAFT?Quote:
Originally Posted by richard cartier
thanks for the chuckle, Richard.
I used to own a Tailorcraft and had the same problem after learning to fly on a 150c with it's huge barn door flaps. The secret is to get used to flying slower. Approaching at 70 mph is going to give you lots of time to get in trouble close to the ground.
Practise slow flight, I had an instructor who told me "any damn fool can fly an airplane fast, to fly it slow takes some skill"
A tailorcraft is like most ultralites, very easy to "unstall".
Speed brake? If you have a passenger, the best speed brake is as soon as you touch down, both open your doors to 90Degrees. Works like a charm.
For anyone that would like to fly slower and have better control I have a set of VG's for sale. Made by Candian Aero Manufacturing andQuote:
Originally Posted by raytoews
can only be used on owner maintenance or experimental , but will work on nicely on certified too just not approved as I understand.
Sure makes the 50mph approach much safer and controlable.
$450 + freight.
There's another, probably larger question here. Aircraft of that configuration and power loading tend to need quite a bit more room to take off than to land. If the runway is too short to land comfortably, how will you get out, much less with any margin?
gmatejcek, In most cases you would be correct. Most airplanes DO need more room to takeoff than to land. But this is a Taylorcraft. I regularly takeoff from a grass runway at gross weight after a ground run of only 300 to 400 feet, depending on the temperature that day. As an experienced Taylorcraft pilot, I can also quite easily land in that same distance. The problem with the Taylorcraft comes from pilots who are not familiar with it's unique attributes and landing techniques. The Taylorcraft wing is more of a laminar flow design than the common Clark Y found on Cubs and other popular small planes. Because of this, the Taylorcraft has developed a reputation of being a floater, or needing a long runway for landing. When, in fact, it is simply a matter of technique. As several have posted on this thread, some dual instruction with an instructor familiar with a Taylorcraft can show any competent pilot how to land in just a few hundred feet without flaps, spoilers, or speed brakes. The upside of this unique airfoil design is that the Taylorcraft is a few knots faster than most of the other 65 HP aircraft of it's vintage. Another quirk of the Taylorcraft's wing design is that the ailerons are located way out on the wing. The induced drag caused from large aileron inputs requires good rudder coordination skills. Perfect for teaching new pilots the use of the rudders. But don't try to pick up a dropped wing in a stall. That induce drag will put you into a spin in a blink of an eye. Overall the Taylorcraft will make a great pilot out of anyone willing to put the effort into learning all the little pearls of wisdom required to master the art of flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by gmatejcek
Rod Machado's commentary in the last AOPA struck a chord with me.
We recently built an Avid, one of the older ones with the small rudder.
The owner is a recently minted private pilot and I have been "trying" to teach him to fly it.
He has very little "stick &rudder" skill.
I was lucky to learn from an instructor in the early 70's who had those skills and have never found any taildragger more than normal challenge.
We are going back to basics, the way, I was taught, first to be able to drive the airplane at any speed and then to learn how the ailerons and rudder are both needed to fly an airplane.
As an ultralite instructor I have checked out numerous pilots in taildraggers, most once airborne fly like any other airplane, it is in the takeoff and especially the landing where the difference shows up.
What I do is spend an hour or two driving up and down the runway at increasing speed, left side, right side tail up and then set it down. That is when the fun begins!
You don't need to log an hour to check out in a taildragger, if you were not intending to fly.
Ray, I agree with some of what you wrote. I bought a tailwheel plane before I was checked out in it. My instructor would fly with me, then he'd go back to his normal weekday job flying a Falcon jet for the phone co. I spent several hours just taxing the plane around solo, so that I was pretty comfortable with the ground handling before I flew it solo. Some pilots just taxi pretty much straight ahead, but what helped me most was to do circles and semi-circles so that I knew how much rudder it took to get the nose to swing and then how much it took in the opposite way to stop the swing and go straight again. It does not have taliwheel steering.
I got my first tailwheel training in a J-3 CUB and I was fortunate to start in the back seat of the Cub, then the back seat of a Stearman, then the back seat of a T-6, so that I was able to get used to being able to handle the plane on the ground without being able to see directly over the nose. You can get tailwheel training in a Super Cub, or Citabria or Decathalon, but since you fly in the front seat you don't get used to having the nose block your forward view.
To this day, my sense of where the nose is pointing is pretty good, it is a strong point for me. When I make a bad landing , it is almost always related to pitch control, that is flaring too high or too low or coming in too fast, rather than any problem with yaw. I think that is because of the early practice on the ground.
One thing that can make your yaw and tailwheel skills rusty is to fly a completely different type of plane for a lot of hours. I use to fly a T-34 for 10 years, about 500 hours, and it is so easy to land that it was a contra trainer for other planes. You sit in the front seat of a 34, right on the centerline, and have great views out the front, you can pracitlcally see the nosewheel touch the ground,and of course it handles well and can land slow. I'd lose some of my tailwheel and yaw skills and have to reorient the next time I flew a tailwheel plane.
I had the same problem you did when I first started flying a Taylorcraft. When you flair a "T" the wing takes a new bite (angle of attack) and starts flying again if you don't have your speed exactly right in the flair. Get that figured out and you will be OK. If the wind is gusty do a wheel landing so you can nail it on.
Hope this helps.
The best speed brake I could find for my '46 BC12D was to bring along a passenger. When you get the mains down, open both doors to 90 degrees! Takes some practice, but effective.
Wow, dunno how I missed this thread at first. I used to own a '41 T-Craft, hundreds of hours in it. Yes, they float. No, they don't need any modifications.
As others have pointed out, speed control on final is critical. I looked at it as starting my flare before even getting to the runway threshold, so that by the time you get to your intended touchdown point you've dissipated enough energy to settle down.
Use a slip for glide angle control. The T-Craft has lots of rudder and you can really stand it up on a wingtip and drop like a rock.
In cross or gusty winds I always used a wheel landing.
Another thing that worked for me is to always leave the elevator trim set for cruise (something I like to do in any plane where the stick force isn't too heavy). This way you have a good feel for the aircraft's speed/AOA just from the stick forces.