What's a guy to do? Can't find Sport Pilot training anywhere close

I'm seeing red, mostly because of the attitude that everyone seems to have that the Sport Pilot Certificate is worth less than the paper on which it is printed.

I have already searched the EAA listing for Flight Instructors, I have already searched the AOPA listing, and three others on other aviation websites only to find that the nearest Sport CFI is 141 miles away from me. Too far to drive.

I have had three different CFIs at three different airports close to me, tell me that they don't do "that sport pilot crap" (a direct quote from one of them) and had all of them tell me they don't fool with it because they can't make money off of it, and all of them tell me "why waste your time with a ticket you can't do anything with?" There is a very disappointing antipathy towards the Sport Pilot certificate. :mad:

So what's a guy to do?

Sounds like Ultralight training haha.

Seriously this is once again caused by the govt. regulation put upon each "sect" of flying.

I feel your pain. If this was my school or training center I would be pushing the SP program. I would push it on an entry level. Meaning I would give you the bare bones SP certificate. Meaning if you want to say, fly a passenger you are coming back for more training and an endorsement. Now I did not say I was skimping on training, one would still train according to the PTS standards as they where written for the SP program.
This would do a couple things. It would keep your students in your program and you will be training them more then if you just went for the full blown SP certificate with dual seat and class C ratings. Why do all this at once, spread it out and keep the school active. Then if one wanted to go PP they would need some more training.
I mentioned this to a couple CFI's. The responses sent me running. Then the ones whom say they will train the SP program do it to GA standards. I have heard so many times, flying is flying you need to know all this. Really, I need to know how to fly into class c airspace. I will never fly into class c airspace. So no I do not need that endorsement thank you. I don't even need to know how to use the radio. My airplane has no electric system so no radio. I see lots of ways to trim the fat from the cost of a basic SP Certificate in terms of cost. As your flying needs change so does your training. Win win for both the student and the SP School.
Now if you feel like I do. Can travel and are a CFI, there is a training facility that's is looking for you. It sets on a 4000' sod runway with a classroom area, shop, office space and on site dorm with 4 bedrooms a bath and a half, kitchen.
All this could be yours for a very low monthly cost. Offer financing to your students and you have a something here. I know of quite a few folks in this area whom would jump on this and you would have them as students for years, one would be me. I would even work the office for free. Donate my time to the cause.
Who is on board?

The 2 FBOs I know of that had Sport planes got rid of them. Why? A few reasons. Between purchase price, note payment, & insurance cost the hourly rate was as much as or more than a 172. Most insurance companies are requiring that the pilot renting the plane has a medical certificate (which many sport pilot applicants cannot pass). And the big one, many of the people seeking sport training are a bit "large" which means you need to have a 110 lb instructor.

Tessmacher:

Could you consider taking some annual vacation (say two weeks) and traveling to a flight school offering SP training and doing an accelerated course? Wouldn't need the local CFIs then. Surely there is one or more flight schools that could provide such a program.

Don

Check the prices of some of these schools. In my world the people flying SP do not have this kind of cash.

As for the training and medical, that just is not correct. You can train in a ercoupe c model, I have done it. But the problem this type of airplane does nothing for me. My airplane is nothing like this airplane but I am forced to train in it. You can buy these planes all day in the 20K range.

I will train in anything as long as I get my SP certificate. I will train in a Rotor craft if that's whats available, I can then go and get an endorsement for fixed wing. Its all about the endorsements but no one gets it. No one I have talked with.

I am wrong about one thing, this man gets it. He understands one can go after endorsements and further their training. I am hopping to see this man around here a lot. Chris Lord is his name. At the start of this video he is standing next to Mr. Dave Holmes whom owns this lovely airpark.
if you would like to contact Mr. Chris Lord, his website is on the side of his Gyro.
Tell him Tony sent you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5_YZckKvn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgOoH9hQxm4

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Originally Posted by dewi8095

Tessmacher:

Could you consider taking some annual vacation (say two weeks) and traveling to a flight school offering SP training and doing an accelerated course? Wouldn't need the local CFIs then. Surely there is one or more flight schools that could provide such a program.

Don

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Nope. Not an option.

I am not sure where you are located but Chris will come to you within reason. He wants to get a traveling training center going, with multi gyro's and some fixed wing. There are those working on this. It takes forums like this to keep others posted as to what is happening in your area and how it might help others.

He told this story when I met him. He said I was cruising along at 9500' and called ATC asking for Flight Following and the the tower said....You are what kind of airplane?

It's kind of hard to give you any help of nearby instruction when neither of you say where you are.

I believe Chris Lord is from up by the Quad City IL. area if that helps any. I am more central IL.

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

It's kind of hard to give you any help of nearby instruction when neither of you say where you are.

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I'm in a location where there is no sport pilot CFI within 150 miles. Where specifically, is irrelevant, since there are neither local instructors, nor any interest in what everyone around here calls a "worthless ticket".

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Originally Posted by Tessmacher

I'm in a location where there is no sport pilot CFI within 150 miles. Where specifically, is irrelevant, since there are neither local instructors, nor any interest in what everyone around here calls a "worthless ticket".

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I'm not sure what these CFI's are talking about when they say "worthless ticket" but apparently they aren't too smart. I wouldn't fly with them just based on that. More than likely they're "hour hogs" looking to fill their log book to qualify for their next job. I'd get in touch with your local EAA chapter and look for a competent CFI through them. Sport pilot is a great cert that simplifies flying for a great many of us. As a private pilot who flies as a sport pilot I'd say these so called CFI's are way off the mark. The FAA did a great service to GA by granting the sport pilot cert, not because it allows some pilots to fly that can't get medicals (as asserted by another poster) but because it allows basic flight with a minimum of effort to be safe. I fly sport because my airplane qualifies and have never been hampered conforming to the regs. If you were in east Texas I'd go get my rating and teach you. Maybe you can find somebody to do that up your way?

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Originally Posted by pacerpilot

I'm not sure what these CFI's are talking about when they say "worthless ticket" but apparently they aren't too smart. I wouldn't fly with them just based on that. More than likely they're "hour hogs" looking to fill their log book to qualify for their next job. I'd get in touch with your local EAA chapter and look for a competent CFI through them. Sport pilot is a great cert that simplifies flying for a great many of us. As a private pilot who flies as a sport pilot I'd say these so called CFI's are way off the mark. The FAA did a great service to GA by granting the sport pilot cert, not because it allows some pilots to fly that can't get medicals (as asserted by another poster) but because it allows basic flight with a minimum of effort to be safe. I fly sport because my airplane qualifies and have never been hampered conforming to the regs. If you were in east Texas I'd go get my rating and teach you. Maybe you can find somebody to do that up your way?

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I completely agree with you that they were "way off the mark" and anyone who has that kind of attitude wouldn't get a cent from me for any service.

The one guy that told me "I don't waste my time with that sport pilot crap, because I can't make any money off of it, and you can't do anything with it" got a rather indignant response from me. He was the only one I went to visit in person, and seeing both the look on his face, and the body language he displayed really rubbed me the wrong way. Add that to the disdainful attitude and dismissive tone of voice, and I couldn't stop myself. I told him, "You are not doing me a favour by teaching me something I don't want, can't use, and wouldn't need, just because you feel like it is necessary I give you money for it. To the contrary, it is my money, hard-earned, and I decide where I spend it." He stood there with his mouth open, and told me that he wouldn't fly me around the pattern, and walked away. If there were a way for me to post advertisements for people to avoid this airfield, I would do it, but I don't think it's worth the effort. I'm pretty sure that he fawns over people who fly in with Citations or Mooneys, and barely tolerates the Cessna and E-AB folks.

The entire point of my original post was to point out that as an interested, prospective student, the antipathy and disdain for what could be the best thing in aviation since the invention of the propeller, is driving people away. If GA wants to save itself, then the people who are "in" have to not only want new people to come in, but encourage them to do it instead of taking this "I got mine on my own, and paid my dues by washing planes for 15 minutes of pattern work so you have to do the same thing" attitude. GA is dying. It's dying because of the inherent "I don't like new things" attitude across the board. That's not only disappointing, but discouraging.

Unfortunately, I am actively considering giving up the idea of pilot training entirely, mostly because of the people in my local area. There is a local flying club, and the first thing they wanted from me before they'd even explain anything about the club was a bank statement. (no joke). The local EAA chapter is full of old men who clearly don't like anyone under 40. My visit to their private airfield and meeting was very unpleasant and unenjoyable. I mostly sat there and watched several discussions about the current situation in Congress, and heard some things that made my skin crawl. On top of that, they all wondered why I was at their 'private' meeting. The first two questions I got were "Who are you?" and "What are you doing here?" (both questions asked in a very suspicious tone) I told them I was interested in learning more about aviation, and was told "well, go get your pilot's license and then come back." (one of them said exactly that). The closest FBO is all about money. They keep the entrance gate from the parking lot locked, and to even get on the airport, you have to use the little phone at the gate to call the office and explain why you want to come inside before they'll buzz the gate open. Not very friendly or inviting. Unless you drive up in a new Mercedes.

I have a friend I took some lessons from 20 years ago in a city about 100 miles away, but he is now a "pilot for hire" and doesn't teach any more. I asked him about the sport pilot cert, and he said he "didn't know much about it, and while it sounded 'okay' " wouldn't I rather "get my ATP so I could get paid for flying?" (If I wanted that, I would have made it my career and gone to an aviation college 20 years ago) It's almost like the people who are currently pilots don't want anyone new coming in and poaching on their patches...

I apologize for being such a negative Nellie, but the whole thing has me disgusted. I've looked at a lot of websites about LSA planes, and there are a few of them that would be perfect for me. Many of them come in kits, a bunch of them were under $80K, and almost all of them had some glass cockpit feature. I like to think I'm pretty handy, know my way around most tools, and could probably build a pretty good airplane, but I'd have to do it completely on my own, with no one to turn to for advice, or other resources. I've read flight reviews of all of the ones that interested me, and I even tracked down a local guy who owns one of the ones I was looking at, and exchanged a few really good emails with him, right up to the point where I asked when he was going to take his plane out again, because I'd like to come see it. Haven't heard a thing from him since. I think he might have thought I'd want to touch it or something.

People want to know why GA is dying? It's dying because many of the folks who are involved in it don't want anyone new to come in, unless there's something in it for them.

It doesn't have to be that way, but it is.

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Originally Posted by Tessmacher

There is a local flying club, and the first thing they wanted from me before they'd even explain anything about the club was a bank statement. (no joke).

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This is not unusual. Many private clubs (not just flying clubs) do this. You want to make sure prospective members can pay their bills.

TM, don't give up. Stay away from the FBO's and go to your local, small, uncontrolled airports. Do some hangar flyin' with the locals and you'll find a CFI somewhere in the mix that will get you your ticket. Also, I'd recommend buying a vintage LSA like a Taylorcraft, Chief or, Pietenpol. $10,000 to $15,000 will buy a beauty and they are as cheap to keep as an old Volkswagon (I'd personally go with a Piet or Pober Jr Ace-my favorites). I feel your pain with regard to the EAA chapter experience. I went to a local meeting once and wasn't welcome because I don't have an RV with a glass panel (I don't drive a Lexus either). Well, it's a foggy, rainy day. I think I'll go to the hangar and work on putting the copilot stick in my plane. You've given me the encouragement to get my SPCFI cert. I just wish the sport pilot training hours counted towards additional ratings. Good luck and I know with a little perseverance you'll get there!

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Originally Posted by Mike Switzer

This is not unusual. Many private clubs (not just flying clubs) do this. You want to make sure prospective members can pay their bills.

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If you aren't infuriated by this kind of economic elitism, then you're just like them.

The fact that the guy asked for my bank statement tells me one thing: They only want a club for people like them.

THAT is the reason GA is going to die.

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Originally Posted by pacerpilot

TM, don't give up. Stay away from the FBO's and go to your local, small, uncontrolled airports. Do some hangar flyin' with the locals and you'll find a CFI somewhere in the mix that will get you your ticket. Also, I'd recommend buying a vintage LSA like a Taylorcraft, Chief or, Pietenpol. $10,000 to $15,000 will buy a beauty and they are as cheap to keep as an old Volkswagon (I'd personally go with a Piet or Pober Jr Ace-my favorites). I feel your pain with regard to the EAA chapter experience. I went to a local meeting once and wasn't welcome because I don't have an RV with a glass panel (I don't drive a Lexus either). Well, it's a foggy, rainy day. I think I'll go to the hangar and work on putting the copilot stick in my plane. You've given me the encouragement to get my SPCFI cert. I just wish the sport pilot training hours counted towards additional ratings. Good luck and I know with a little perseverance you'll get there!

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Two of the three local airports were uncontrolled small local airports. The third one was the one with the locked gate. There are four privately-owned airfields within 40 miles, two of which are owned by EAA chapters. One of which also has a locked gate since it's an airport-community. There are about 12 houses around this airfield, all with hangars, all facing the runway, and they are their own chapter. There is barbed wire around the top of the perimeter fence! No one can get in unless they have the gate code, or fly in to the runway. I've often wondered what would happen if someone who didn't live there had to make an emergency landing on that field. I imagine these people would run out of their houses with shotguns.

There are no locals that I'd want to do any hangar flying with, because they're all just like your "you don't have an RV with a glass panel, so go away" types. That is the entire problem in a nutshell. I'm not willing (or able) to drive almost 100 miles to hang out with people to get the chance to maybe fly, and even if I did get training elsewhere and buy (or build) an airplane, I still live where I live, around these people. It would be like living on an island. I would never be part of the group. Where would I keep this airplane if I got one? There's the EAA fields, where they don't want any new people, so that's out. There's the two other privately owned airfields, and I'm sure one of them would want some stranger around all the time with another airplane on their property. The closest field, (the one with the locked gate with the phone next to it) charges $750 a month for outdoor tie-downs, and $1200 a month for space in their hangar, and from the few times I've ever seen it from the road with the doors open, it's filled with big twins, jets, and other airplanes that you could put two or three Taylorcrafts, Cubs, Champs in. I've never seen a small plane in the hangar.

I really wish you get your SPCFI. I hope that there will eventually be more out there like you, who are willing to be open, inclusive, and welcoming before its too late. As of now, I'm just fed up dealing with the political extremism, the exclusive, elitist attitudes, the overall snobbishness, and the "I got mine, and you don't" sneers. I have little to no interest any longer, in trying to "get in" to the "club". I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to spend my precious time around people who are grumpy, negative, exclusive, elitist, and rude. I have other friends with other hobbies who enjoy each others company, and aren't exclusivist.

The EAA is so big, bloated, and cumbersome that it doesn't have any idea what is going on at the local chapter level. They like to claim that they're promoting grass-roots aviation, but all they're really doing is facilitating rich-boy's clubs that are driving away people in droves. If they only knew... Or cared.

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Originally Posted by Tessmacher

Two of the three local airports were uncontrolled small local airports. The third one was the one with the locked gate. There are four privately-owned airfields within 40 miles, two of which are owned by EAA chapters. One of which also has a locked gate since it's an airport-community. There are about 12 houses around this airfield, all with hangars, all facing the runway, and they are their own chapter. There is barbed wire around the top of the perimeter fence! No one can get in unless they have the gate code, or fly in to the runway. I've often wondered what would happen if someone who didn't live there had to make an emergency landing on that field. I imagine these people would run out of their houses with shotguns.

There are no locals that I'd want to do any hangar flying with, because they're all just like your "you don't have an RV with a glass panel, so go away" types. That is the entire problem in a nutshell. I'm not willing (or able) to drive almost 100 miles to hang out with people to get the chance to maybe fly, and even if I did get training elsewhere and buy (or build) an airplane, I still live where I live, around these people. It would be like living on an island. I would never be part of the group. Where would I keep this airplane if I got one? There's the EAA fields, where they don't want any new people, so that's out. There's the two other privately owned airfields, and I'm sure one of them would want some stranger around all the time with another airplane on their property. The closest field, (the one with the locked gate with the phone next to it) charges $750 a month for outdoor tie-downs, and $1200 a month for space in their hangar, and from the few times I've ever seen it from the road with the doors open, it's filled with big twins, jets, and other airplanes that you could put two or three Taylorcrafts, Cubs, Champs in. I've never seen a small plane in the hangar.

I really wish you get your SPCFI. I hope that there will eventually be more out there like you, who are willing to be open, inclusive, and welcoming before its too late. As of now, I'm just fed up dealing with the political extremism, the exclusive, elitist attitudes, the overall snobbishness, and the "I got mine, and you don't" sneers. I have little to no interest any longer, in trying to "get in" to the "club". I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to spend my precious time around people who are grumpy, negative, exclusive, elitist, and rude. I have other friends with other hobbies who enjoy each others company, and aren't exclusivist.

The EAA is so big, bloated, and cumbersome that it doesn't have any idea what is going on at the local chapter level. They like to claim that they're promoting grass-roots aviation, but all they're really doing is facilitating rich-boy's clubs that are driving away people in droves. If they only knew... Or cared.

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Tessmacher,

Sad that the chapter near you is like this. Our chapter has its share of RVs but our Chapter pres flies a T-Craft as an SP, the VP is a student pilot who works line service and we have members with a RANS, a VP-2, a Pacer (me!), a Stinson, multiple Sonexes, Cessnas new and old, and many projects to talk about (Cavalier, BD-4C, Skycoupe rebuild, Fly Baby, etc.) Each Chapter is its own individual gang (intentional choice of word) that develops its own character. Is there only one chapter near you? We have four or more in the greater St. Louis area.

I also talked about the SP training on the other thread but here I also think like some of the other posters that you might want to think about the accelerated course. Have you considered looking for a place to do it on a compressed schedule? I know our local FBO St. Charles Flying Service (http://www.stcharlesflyingservice.com/) has done this multiple times. You might want to give Dennis a call and talk to him. They are currently down one LSA due to a takeoff accident by a renter but are very actively searching for another one. They also have a Facebook page if you are so inclined.

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Originally Posted by Tessmacher

If you aren't infuriated by this kind of economic elitism, then you're just like them.

The fact that the guy asked for my bank statement tells me one thing: They only want a club for people like them.

THAT is the reason GA is going to die.

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Step back & think about it for a minute. Say a new student flies 10 hours in the first month leaving him with a bill of $1000 owed to the club. If it is a person that has a history of not being able to make their monthly rent payment do you think the club is going to get paid? No, the club is out $1000. It makes perfect sense to make sure a potential member has the means to pay their debts.

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Originally Posted by Mike Switzer

It makes perfect sense to make sure a potential member has the means to pay their debts.

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Yes, it's called due diligence. Kinda like a lender doing a credit check before the buyer purchases something on terms.

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Originally Posted by Mike Switzer

Step back & think about it for a minute. Say a new student flies 10 hours in the first month leaving him with a bill of $1000 owed to the club. If it is a person that has a history of not being able to make their monthly rent payment do you think the club is going to get paid? No, the club is out $1000. It makes perfect sense to make sure a potential member has the means to pay their debts.

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Ummm.....how about no flights on credit? The two flight schools I went to wouldn't just let you run up a bill. You either had enough money to cover the flight in your account or you didn't fly.

Clubs generally have a flat fee up front to join then send out a monthly bill for dues & hourly rental. Clubs do not operate like a for profit flight school.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

Yes, it's called due diligence. Kinda like a lender doing a credit check before the buyer purchases something on terms.

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Credit check, fine. Bank statements, no way.

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Originally Posted by pacerpilot

Credit check, fine. Bank statements, no way.

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They could have wanted to check my credit all day long, and I wouldn't have had the first bit of trouble with it. I've never been late on any payment, and I only have one credit card, and the last $1200 of my graduate student loan to pay off. (it was over $14K when I finished my degree, by the way...) I have perfect credit. Credit isn't the problem. And I'd be perfectly fine with paying as I went. I fly 6 hours last month, I pay for six hours, plus my share of the maintenance fund. No problem. The issue was, they wanted to find out my economic status before they even wanted to talk to me!

I think all these guys rushing to defend them missed the point. If they wouldn't even talk to me (and they wouldn't) without knowing "what you have in your bank account" (a direct quote) the problem is not "we want to see if you can pay your bills" it is "you have to be wealthy enough to hobnob with us, or you're riff-raff we don't want to associate with"...

Big difference.

And I could tell it was the latter, by the disapproving look down the nose I got, when I walked into the guy's office (He was a banker, by the way...)

I could clearly see the attitude. Instead of being "hey, wow! I am so glad you're interested, what can I do to welcome you and help you find out if aviation and this club is right for you" he was "if you're not the type of person I want to hang out with, I don't want to waste any of my valuable time talking to a peon..."

If people can't see that attitude, then they have it. If people can't see that economic elitism is the problem, then they're not only part of the problem, they're definitely not going to be willing to admit there is such a problem, much less find a way to solve it. As I said, this is the attitude that will nail the last few nails (or punch the last few rivets) into the coffin of GA.

I went through the same problem when I got my sport pilot out of 3 schools that had a plane to instruct in, one didn't have an instructor to fly with, one the plane a challenger was just too small for our combined weight, the third had an ercoupe and a small instructor who was also a DER I did most of my instruction in a 172, it was cheaper to pay ahead and I was fine with it, then when I was getting close to soloing we switched over to the Ercoupe, Now it is time for my Biannual and I am almost done with my homebuilt, A wittman Buttercup, I tried the community college to pick up my taildragger endorsement and BFR I had to sign up and register just like a student and then it got to be 2 months between lessons when I had a balance at the school, I flew a sport cub and feel like I could handle landing one in the conditions that I would fly in, but the instructors want more time before they are willing to sign me off for tailwheel, and I have been trying for the better part of 2 months to get a BFR done but I can't get the instructors to even do it, I am told wait auntil next week or next month and I will fit you in, and that week or month passes and I am told to wait longer. At this rate I will have 2 planes built and have no endorsements to fly either. By the way I drove 150 miles each way for lessons and flew in 20 knot crosswinds to get experience, Lucky for me I had weekdays available because no one in northwest Iowa teaches on the weekend have they got things backwards or what?

TM,

Unfortunately there are snobs and dirt-bags in all segments of society. Aviation is no exception. Sadly, there seems to be more than your fair share in your neck of the woods. With that fact in mnd, maybe what you need to do is start your own club. I'm willing to bet there are others, in your area, who have run into the exact same thing you have. And have given up. Figure out a way to gather them all together.

Sure, you'd be starting from square one. Not airport. No airplanes. Heck, noteven any licensed pilots. But you have a group of people with a common interest. With all those heads working together, you'll probably come up with some ideas on how to accomplish your goals right quick. And, later, you can move over to one of those uncontrolled, public use airports. You might still have to put up with the crabs & blowhards, from time to time. But once people start to see you and yours having fun... others will be drawn in. And, before you know it, the crabs & blowhards will either take off (looking for darker pastures) or surrender and start having fun themselves.

We have a local airport that was fairly "dead", socially speaking, until an new, young pilot rented one of the hangers a couple years ago. Now it's THEE place to hang out on weekends. It's become a fun, friendly place. Mostly because he is a fun, friendly kind of guy, who's attitude is contagious. You go out to the airport, almost any day now, and you'll find open hangars, with happy people eager to share their hobby. And it all started with one person.

It might be a lot of work, but you could just be the spark that ignites a fire. Good luck.

Oh, by the way... I earned my SP license a little over two years ago, in an Ercoupe. (I'm disabled and have limited use of my legs.) That CFI that said it's a worthless ticket... is a first class CNS (certified numbskull). And you can tell him I said that. I can fly a 2 seat airplane, pretty much anywhere I want, during daylight hours, in VFR conditions. Now, unless you fly professionally, that's probably 90-95% of the type of flying that even those with a PPL do.

It is really disappointing to hear about the treatment you received. Believe me, it is not like that everywhere. Don't give up. As far as the credit checks and bank statements, I have personally never run into anything like this. Wow! Believe me, all of us existing aviators are NOT rich, many having to sacrifice in other areas just to support or hobby. There are a lot of people who frequent this site, scattered all over the country. Let everyone know where you are and maybe someone can make a recommendation that would help. Nobody is going to come bother you.

Without letting us know where you are a question like this can't be answered, I already have a fridge of drinks, I plan on hauling the BBQ grill up to the hangar and am working towards my sportPilot Certificate, all I need to do is wait until I finish putting my wife through nursing school and I plan on starting a small school devoted just to Sport Pilots, If I buy one or 2 cheap planes and have them to rent I think I can break even,

As for as I can see, being a CFI is a tough road economically, it's hard to make enough to live on. Go out to the parking lot and look at the cars they are driving. Now, this is much the same situation for many airline people. I know a United pilot who is about to retire at 65 and his pension is 1/3 of what it would have been years ago and he is selling his T-6. Now when you go on an airline the stews aren't having as much fun as they did back when Southwest started. Even highly educated doctors are not making as much money as they once did. Medicare and ins reimbursments are much tighter now; maybe they bill $300 for a visit and actually net $125. Some people may love teaching or flying or medicine so much that they can overcome this and still be happy and keep a good face in relating to others. But not everyone is that good. Just look at all the petty bitching on this forum about the price of water at EAA or a kid's ferris wheel or a couple of chalets. None of this had any meaningful direct effect on most of us, but reading this forum was like waking up a small dog, lot's of shrill barking.
So CFIs, like other people are human, and if they are not prospering, if they are frustrated because the haven't gotten that top paying charter job, etc. they may let their negative attitudes out on others. Now, if I was the owner or manager of a flight school, I'd make sure that customer service was at the top, and if we could not accomadate a student and make money, then I'd at least say no in a nice way.
But what are you going to do, let the negative ones ruin it for you? I played football from the time I can even remember all through high school. Other than being slow, not too big, and having bad hands, I was great. So coaches weren't exactly beating down my door begging me to come make them famous. I never remember having a coach that was anything to admire, even at a 4 A school my senior year that had won the state championship. But I never let them stop me and I got to be a small part of a bigger thing. I actually got much better reception from coaches when I moved to Colorado and started learning to ski race. If you have even seen a Texan trying to ski, it is much like a politician trying to tell the truth; more likely in theory than practice.

So what I am trying to say is this rambling bit, is don't let a CFI or anyone else determine if you are going to be a pilot or not, and have fun doing it. But be realistic, they are trying to run a for profit business and it is hard to do at the lower end. You can be your own teacher on many things, it doesn't cost anything to sit at the airport and watch pilots landing, and there is a lot of aviation you can enjoy cheaply, if not actually flying. Good luck.

Interesting take, Bill... The only problem with it is if I don't find a CFI capable of teaching in an LSA, then all I'll ever get to do is sit on my arse watching others. That smacks too much of the guy sitting outside the restaurant watching through the glass at all the people having a good time. Not my thing.

If I can't find what I want, on my terms, then I'll find the next best thing and run with that. It is my money after all. I will spend it on what makes me happy. If that means ignoring the local airfield, then so be it.

One tidbit to take away from all this. The cost of living in the US has gone up 111% since 1970. The minimum wage, adjusted for cost of living and the value of the dollar has gone down 23% since 1970. The average salary for a Fortune 500 CEO has gone up 537% since 1970.

Call me 425 271 7464. I am a qualified CFI and will teach in your aircraft and travel to your location. Price is reasonable but not free, unless we agree as I have done in the past with others on this EAAl list.

See my reply #13 on the New Sport Pilot Questions list for more info.

The described animosity toward SP on the part of FBO's & CFI's is generally correct. A flight school at my airport (SBP) refuses to give already-licensed Sport Pilots a Biannual Flight Review because "We don't consider it a real license". So consider this: she will let a 0-hour PP student fly her airplane but not a 500 hour licensed SP!
An important note about the above comment regarding insurance: when you are a student of any class flying with a CFI, you are not PIC (pilot in command). The PIC is who is on the insurance policy for the rental. This info comes from 2 different FSDO's. This also holds true if your license has lapsed and are taking a flight review for currency.

C'MON CFI's, GET A GRIP!!

Update: I think the Instruction component of the situation has resolved itself...

A bit of background...

Back when I started taking instruction (early 1990s) I went with a friend to a small, local fly-in in another state. It was one of those breakfast things, and hanging out with other pilots for a while. I met a guy who was an instructor at that airfield, and we stayed in touch. It was a bit far for me to travel regularly, so I never took instruction with the guy, but I did run into him at other fly-ins, barbecues, and such from time to time. When I had to stop (marriage, family, job, etc) flying, I lost touch with all my pilot friends, and now, 20 years later, almost all of them have either moved on or have gone on West...

Late last week, I was working on researching something for a friend, and totally unrelated to anything having to do with flying, I ran across a mention of the pilot-CFI-guy I knew back then. I thought about it for a bit, felt it might be worth it to reconnect, and decided to get in touch. Turns out that he's retired from his day-job and now is a part-time CFI just for the fun of it. He just bought one a PiperSport/SportCruiser LSAs about a year ago, and would not only be willing to fly to me (around 80 SM) but can teach Sport Pilot, since he has an LSA!

I was just about ready to give up, and here fell in my lap the answer to my dilemma!

Now all I have to do is convince the other half that I want to start up flying again... Ha! That's going to be a tougher sell than it was back in the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tessmacher

Update: I think the Instruction component of the situation has resolved itself...

"A bit of background...

Back when I started taking instruction (early 1990s)...
Now all I have to do is convince the other half that I want to start up flying again... Ha! That's going to be a tougher sell than it was back in the day."

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You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You don't have to convince your other half that you want to take up flying again, you've already decided to. Given the limited opportunity you have-do it! Here's what you tell your sidekick; let your other half "know" that you're taking up flying again since you've found the opportunity. You might have to sweeten the deal somewhat though. Here's some examples of what I've done in the past. When I bought a plane about three years ago I bought my wife a new washing machine-happiness abounds. When I bought my Junior Ace last year, I got her a new dryer to go with it-peace and serenity. When I drove out west a few months ago to pick up another plane I bought, I brought her along and dropped her off at her moms-she made me pick her back though. See, win-win, well almost. Or, you could roll the dice and "ask" permission. Seems kinda' risky though. By the way, I really did do the washer and dryer deal. I had to pick her back up from her moms-I don't know how to use the washer and dryer. We need a new living room set; I've got my eye on a Pietenpol. :D

"I was just about ready to give up, and here fell in my lap the answer to my dilemma!"

Hey, that's great news!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pacerpilot

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You don't have to convince your other half that you want to take up flying again, you've already decided to."

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I know you were speaking tongue-in-cheek, but we've been married 24 years, and the reason we've stayed married is that neither one of us makes arbitrary decisions without the others' approval and permission.

They say that couples only argue over two reasons: Money and Children.

We don't have either, and so we don't argue.

I think that she won't really present any objections, once she realises that I am really in want to do this. She might even encourage it! Stranger things have happened...

Now all I have to do is decide which kit to build...

Forty seven years ago I told my girlfriend we no longer need to consider getting married. When she ask why I responded, because I just bought an airplane. It sure was effective in getting her to say yes and we have been together since with no complaints about my flying or her cooking. Well for the most part. In fact, 27 years later I found out that she was the one that got me my dream job with United Airlines. Long story.

TM, actually, I'm only partially kidding. I really did do the washer and dryer thing. She wanted new ones. We've had "Money and Children". The money's gone, but the kids keep coming back-mostly to barrow what's left of the money, or eat food, or barrow a car/boat/truck/airplane. We don't argue about either. Luckily, she finds my ability to make the most of not much intriguing. 29 years and still going. However, she informed me earlier that a Pietenpol is worth a living room set AND a new kitchen. What's up with that? I think I need to remember to log out of this site when I'm done! She may be on to me...

I get it!