Diesel engines

So I have been looking around at ways of reducing the cost (both initial and operating) and weight of my design. I'm trying to stay away from AvGas powered engines for a couple of reasons (predominately pending demise of 100LL) and have had a hell of a time finding an option other than a turboprop, a diesel or one of those odd modifications of a car engine (which I am staying away from because I don't see unleaded gasoline as a viable option either). The maintenance costs on turboprops are too high to make that an ideal choice which leaves me largely with diesels as a possible option.

However, I am not having much luck finding one that is over 200-300 hp. Deltahawk isn't offering anything, it appears Lycoming has given up on their development of a diesel powerplant and I'm not finding much else that seems useful. Anyone else aware of anything else out there (or in the very final stages of development) that might be an option?

The problem with a diesel for aircraft use is aluminum doesn't hold up real well under the combustion pressures involved. I was involved with the testing of a GM/Isuzu engine back in the late 90s & they had no end of problems due to the thinner parts of the aluminum head casting flexing under pressure.

Ford has a 4.4 liter turbo diesel that was supposed to go in the F150, 320HP & 520ftlb torque, right now it is only available in a Land Rover in Europe, with the Federal mandate for low sulfur diesel adding at least $1/gal to the price of diesel fuel the market for that engine in the F150 in the US disappeared. I was told it was supposed to weigh about the same as a small block ford but I haven't been able to find an actual weight on it. You might also look into the 3.6 liter engine that is used in a lot of British built Fords.

There are a few diesel aviation engine developments here in Europe, mainly based on automotive engines. There are the Thielert engines (Germany) which are build in series. They have an engine of about 170 HP which is flying in the Diamond DA 40 and DA 42 and is also aiming at the retrofit market for C-172, Pa28, Robin DR400 etc. Something similar was developed in Austria by Diamond for use in Diamond aircraft. In France there are the SMA engines (4-flat) originaly developed by Renault which are rated at about 230 HP. Mistral engines of Switzerland have a very interesting diesel rotary engine under development.
All these engines were on display at the AERO in April. You will find more info about these engines on the net.

Yeah, the truck engine options aren't what I'm looking for due to a couple of consideration (weight:horsepower being the biggest one). The aviation models are all too low powered. I may just have to accept the associated maintenance expense of a turboprop and work with it.

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Originally Posted by Thomas Stute

There are a few diesel aviation engine developments here in Europe, mainly based on automotive engines. There are the Thielert engines (Germany) which are build in series. They have an engine of about 170 HP which is flying in the Diamond DA 40 and DA 42 and is also aiming at the retrofit market for C-172, Pa28, Robin DR400 etc. Something similar was developed in Austria by Diamond for use in Diamond aircraft. In France there are the SMA engines (4-flat) originaly developed by Renault which are rated at about 230 HP. Mistral engines of Switzerland have a very interesting diesel rotary engine under development.
All these engines were on display at the AERO in April. You will find more info about these engines on the net.

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I believe Thielert is no more. I'm pretty sure Austro makes the diesel engines for Diamond now.

Thielert is no more. They have been rebranded as Centurion engines but their engines are very low powered (135 and 155 hp). They had been developing a 350 hp model (still low powered but better than most others on the market) but that has been put on hold indefinitely.

There was another aviation diesel development in Germany, the Zoche aero Diesel radials, ranging from 70HP to 300 HP. You can find more about them under www.zoche.de (in English). I'm not sure about the status of this development but contact them and you find out.
Information about the Swiss mistral aero-engines is under www.mistral-engines.com Currently this seems to be the most promising development.

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Originally Posted by Thomas Stute

There was another aviation diesel development in Germany, the Zoche aero Diesel radials, ranging from 70HP to 300 HP. You can find more about them under www.zoche.de (in English). I'm not sure about the status of this development but contact them and you find out.
Information about the Swiss mistral aero-engines is under www.mistral-engines.com Currently this seems to be the most promising development.

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It appears that the Mistrals are designed to run on 100LL or regular gasoline both of which I am trying to stay away from. I have sent an e-mail to Zoche, but have yet to hear anything back from them.

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

I have sent an e-mail to Zoche, but have yet to hear anything back from them.

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From what I understand, you probably won't. I don't think their web site has changed in over 10 years, & I haven't heard of them attending any aviation trade shows anywhere in quite a while.

It did look like a promising design.

Lovely. Guess I'll go back to planning on a turboprop. I can't find a reciprocating engine with enough power to work and there are no other good options. Thanks for all of your input.

The Dec 2011 issue of Experimenter Magazine tells of a new Diesel "Flat V 8" out of Wisconsin.
The test pilot for this engine is Dick Rutan.
Here is the URL:
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/issues/1112.html

On the Zoche engine: I believe that Mr Zoche just likes coming to OSH each summer. By displaying his engine, he can write the trip off his taxes. For 10 or 15 years now his website says that certification is just around the corner. I happened to be in the Zoche booth at OSH when Burt Rutan got down on his knees and begged Mr Zoche for two engines for his Boomerang (which was designed to use Zoche Engines). Mr Zoche said he wouldn't let any out until certification. I'm pretty sure that it will be a really chilly day in a normally hot location before the engines will be delivered for aircraft use.

I don't understand it, on paper the Zoche design is good - it is basically the Junkers Jumo 2 stroke in a radial configuration. The only possible issue is cold starting, why don't they bring it to production??

My Senior design/marketing project (many years ago) included a similar (V12) 2 stroke supercharged engine design

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The Dec 2011 issue of Experimenter Magazine tells of a new Diesel "Flat V 8" out of Wisconsin.

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Nice....may if this works out they will come out with a high-power version next. That is the one thing that frustrates me the most about the diesel side of the powerplant market, lots of weight for not a lot of power.

anybody else that had never heard of a flat-vee engine besides me? check this out:

http://www.patents.com/us-7191742.html

Well, there are the SMA Engines:

http://www.smaengines.com

If I recall, Continental entered a licensing agreement with them recently (within the last two years?).

There is also an STC to put these engines in the C-182, albeit a spendy one. Plane & Pilot Magazine did an article on it not too long ago, so you might look in their archives.

AvWeb/AviationConsumer also did one as well. There's a video on it as well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRDJV0IMrtk

~Chris

OK, it has been over 20 years since I had any classes in patent law, but how in the world do you get a patent for something that has been around for at least 80 years?

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Well, there are the SMA Engines:

http://www.smaengines.com

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Yeah, there's one engine they produce and it's heavy and low-powered (assuming one uses anything but an LSA or UL engine as a standard). It's only rated for 230 hp up to 10,000 feet with a dry weight of 460 lbs. I originally had started a design around their engine when it was first talked about but then they came out with something much more lower powered than what I was expecting.

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There is also an STC to put these engines in the C-182, albeit a spendy one.

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My other alternative is a turboprop engine. Everything's "spendy". ;)

A diesel would be good but are known to be heavy for airplanes (high compression ratios equal heavy weight).

Zoche has been around since I displayed at OSH in '86 ... with no certification or sales.

Thielert has been gone a while ... and the Cessna airplane that prototyped the engine is now with a local aviation training center.

Autofuel isn't bad (beats having to heat diesel fuel/kerosene), but I agree converted automobile engines have their issues, too.

Keep going, Steve, you'll get there!

I believe that we will have a couple of Diesel Engines in the future.

I also agree that the Zoche will never fly. I'm watching his project since 15 years and talked a couple times with him with always the same answers.
"It will be ready and certified soon..."

We searched also a long time for the Diesel Engine for our flight around the world. We will fly around 150,000 miles and also to remote locations where AVGAS is not available.

Inodyne, an affordable Turbine was also on our list. They promised a fuel economy like a Lycoming but never flew below 14 Gallons on cruise.

DeltaHawk are doing a big mistake. Instead of selling an uncertified engine first and get a lots of feedback from Experimental builder they try to certify the engine with the result of loosing years and years and from the expected price range of about $30,000 they are now in high 50th.

In my eyes the Thielert, now Centurion is the best Diesel Engine on the market. It is a well proven engine now, with millions of cumulated flight hours and they solved a lot of problems which they had in the beginning and all the newcomer will also run into a lot of problems which must be fixed.
But Centurion will not sell to the experimental market and the engine is very expensive.

We ended up with a Superior engine with a "LSE Dual Lightspeed Ignition" and a fine tuned "Airflow Injection System".
Until now we have flown about 400 hours, running 90% on 91 Octane car gas, cruising at 8,000ft with 150 TAS and burning 7 Gal running lean of peak without any problems.

And I bet with the upcoming electronic injection system you can save another gallon. For the moment it makes no sense to me to spend lot of money in an "Alternate" Diesel Engine.

Detlef


Detlef Heun & Liliana Tagliamonte
www.flight-around-the-world.org
www.DL-Pictures.com

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Autofuel isn't bad (beats having to heat diesel fuel/kerosene)

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If I'm going with a gasoline based fuel, I'd just go with 100LL until a suitable substitute is available which it should be in the next four to five years. However, the same problem exists that finding a high enough horsepower engine to achieve decent performance (especially at altitude) continues to be an issue.

I am trying to stay away from uncertified engines simply because I may want to try to get this aircraft certified at some point (if for nothing less than to reduce insurance and to alleviate any potential issues with foreign travel in a large "experimental").

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

...I may want to try to get this aircraft certified at some point (if for nothing less than to reduce insurance and to alleviate any potential issues with foreign travel in a large "experimental").

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If certification costs are something you can just throw around to save a couple thou in insurance, I think you've pretty well answered your own question. You're in turboprop territory. There are no diesels in the hp range you are looking for because there is no market demand, and those that come close are either ground-bound or too heavy. So it's turboprop if you want to burn the kerosene. Your design won't be wallet-friendly, but it will be much lighter and more powerful by abandoning reciprocating-piston-based power. I'm curious to find out what other capabilities your magic carpet will have that a Pilatus PC-12 or the Lancair Evolution aren't already offering...

Your question is kind of like asking someone who is building a RV-6 "Why not just buy a Cirrus or Mooney?" or asking the guys who design and build their own LSA "Why not just buy an Aeronca or a Cub?". It's mostly just because we decided what we want out of a design and went for it. It's a challenge to figure out what all goes into a complicated design and that's what intrigues me most. The fact that I'll wind up with an aircraft at the end of the process is just icing on the cake.

But to answer your question more specifically:
-Speed (in the case of the PC-12)
-Range (in the case of both but especially the Lancair; fully loaded a PC-12 doesn't have that great of a range)
-Payload (in the case of the Lancair)
-Comfort (in the case of the Lancair)


But mostly I am working on my own design just for the challenge of the process. There are some other motivations but I doubt anyone here would be interested in them.

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Your design won't be wallet-friendly, but it will be much lighter and more powerful by abandoning reciprocating-piston-based power.

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Most aircraft that are even remotely useful tend to not be wallet friendly. Once you break it down to cost per passenger mile, my design conceivably would be friendlier on the wallet (excluding maintenance costs) than some designs.

You might wait for a 500hp V8 Diesel that has already test run in 2010 www.raikhlin.com
Seems to be rather quiet at present.

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

So I have been looking around at ways of reducing the cost (both initial and operating) and weight of my design. I'm trying to stay away from AvGas powered engines for a couple of reasons (predominately pending demise of 100LL) and have had a hell of a time finding an option other than a turboprop, a diesel or one of those odd modifications of a car engine (which I am staying away from because I don't see unleaded gasoline as a viable option either). The maintenance costs on turboprops are too high to make that an ideal choice which leaves me largely with diesels as a possible option.

However, I am not having much luck finding one that is over 200-300 hp. Deltahawk isn't offering anything, it appears Lycoming has given up on their development of a diesel powerplant and I'm not finding much else that seems useful. Anyone else aware of anything else out there (or in the very final stages of development) that might be an option?

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william cox.Revetec Australia are a company developing a new design which may be useful. Go to the website.

[QUOTE=detlili;8832]DeltaHawk are doing a big mistake. Instead of selling an uncertified engine first and get a lots of feedback from Experimental builder they try to certify the engine with the result of loosing years and years and from the expected price range of about $30,000 they are now in high 50th.Check this link to DeltaHawk: http://www.deltahawkengines.com/sugges00.shtmlLooks like they are getting in bed with Velocity.........But the price escalates.........