I don't like this at all....
http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/AV12_chalet_sellsheet.pdf
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I don't like this at all....
http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/AV12_chalet_sellsheet.pdf
Hmmm... First time I've seen this, but I haven't been scouring the EAA website thru all the rabbit holes for awhile.
My first reaction is "*sigh*", Oh well. But, looking at it pragmatically, I can see where there may have been some demand for it from the higher-eschelon vendors present at the event. Note that it's not EAA selling the luxury suites to members for a day or week. These are for VENDORS to entertain their guests.
At every major event, deals like these crop up. While most of us deal with the homebuilt/experimental side of EAA, there are those who attend to either buy or sell multi-million $$ hardware. When you're dealing with that level of customer, there's a certain amount of expected butt-kissing/schmoozing to be done.
It's the vendor's fault, not EAA's. That's my ignorant assumption, and I can sleep better thinking it. ;-)
push them-thair homebuilt contraptions out of the way an they'll have a lot of room to expand. It will be just like the Dayton Air Show!
This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking. :(
What's nice is that if you're on the higher end of the homebuilt/experimental stuff (or at least willing to BS that line if you're not of the same inclination as myself and my compatriots), you can pick up some really great free swag, food, etc. NBAA had one places in basically that same area these last year and it was free Coke central. I got to watch Fifi leave the last day of the show from there. If it had not been for those chalets, I never would have been able to get a more or less unobstructed view of her run-up and take off.Quote:
While most of us deal with the homebuilt/experimental side of EAA, there are those who attend to either buy or sell multi-million $$ hardware. When you're dealing with that level of customer, there's a certain amount of expected butt-kissing/schmoozing to be done.
That's the only drawback, although I think this particular area was taken up for the past couple years by the same setup. But then againQuote:
This wipes out a large part of the homebuilt parking
That said, I wouldn't want my baby to be parked that close to show center in case one of the airshow birds loses control and it becomes Ramstein 1988 all over again. That or in case Mr. Roush tries to fly himself in again....either or....
They did it last year, too.
Family, homebuilts, kids, and real personal and vintage aircraft front and center (not chalets!). Magazine cover is a table of contents, not a nice airplane photo. I looked at Sport Aviation very little again this month. I find the old archives more interesting which really does not bode well for the organization.
To a certain degree, I'll agree with you. If I'm looking for ideas or things to copy, I look at Sport Aviation or one of the other aviation magazines that are current. If I'm looking for "how to" information, I look towards the archives. Both have their pluses and minuses. It's also nice to be able to look back and see how far we've advanced from the origins of homebuilding and to wonder what became of some of the more eccentric ideas that have come out of the hobby....Quote:
I find the old archives more interesting
Having been tangentially involved to varying degrees with the EAA since 1988 (mostly as a "hangar rat" with one of the chapters back home), that's not a new refrain like a lot of people want to make it seem. I've come to kind of come to accept that the only thing some pilots like to do more than fly is search for things to get their undies in a knot over. That's not directed at you personally Clarke...more of a general observation.Quote:
which really does not bode well for the organization.
Last year, it was one pavilion. This year it is 5.
IMO, this is the kind of thing that doesn't cause a lot of angst if things are going well and the members are generally satisfied. When a sizeable portion of the membership base is openly questioning the direction of the organization, this is fuel for the fire.
As someone posted earlier in the thread, there appears to be a spark of inspiration on the VAF site to collect proxies and attempt to elect one or more directors who better represent the homebuilt movement. Without a significant effort, it will be very hard to overcome the advantage the current EAA proxy process gives to the powers that be...
As it would be when Mr. Paul was in charge.
Time to do the math Clarke: 1 chalet last yr @$40k/wk., somebody figured WOW! this is easy money. 5 chalets this yr =$200k/wk. I suspect there will be more next yr., families and kids can take their homebuilts and vintage airplanes to the N. 40. A $40 annual membership prolly covers the weekly rental for 1 portapotty.
Sell one more chalet and use the money to lower the price of water from the insane $3.00 per bottle down to the mildly ridiculous $2.00 per bottle.
What bothers me most is the golf carts. We're supposed to be DECREASING the number of vehicles at the airshow.
I've still yet to see anything conclusive to say a "sizable" portion is openly doing anything? A couple dozen people griping on internet forums isn't a valid sample and you're smart enough to know the danger of assuming that just because you hold an opinion doesn't mean that when you encounter a few others who do that it means you're part of a grand majority or something. I'm not saying which side is correct. The answer is likely neither because there has to be middle ground because either you guys are going to finally get ticked enough to totally stop caring, showing up and griping or you get your way and the funding shrinks and you get something new to gripe about. What I am saying that relying on anecdotal evidence is probably not the best way to just the mood of a group where most of them are not taking part in that sample. Especially an internet forum where you have no way of knowing that what is put out as several people is not what it seems.Quote:
When a sizeable portion of the membership base is openly questioning the direction of the organization, this is fuel for the fire.
For example, how do you know that FlyingRiki, MartyMayes, FlyingRon, MikeSwitzer and myself aren't all just one person having an "argument" with himself? ;)
I know a lot of people who have petty gripes but I don't know that it's a sizable chunk of the EAA membership. I've got a few grievances myself but not anything that I can't see why they are doing what they do to appease the aspects of the membership who differ in interests from my own. I'd like to see a lot of the non-aviation vendors run off of the grounds. I'd like to see that little reenactors' camp done away with so there'd be more parking for Cubs or RVs or whatever but the warbird guys want them there apparently.
I think trying to work to get the EAA back to a "happy medium" is a good idea. I don't think it should be reduced to nothing but an RV type club or an all ragwing show or a "Nothing but auto conversions" hour. The thing is that abandoning ship so to speak and letting the EAA 'wither on the vine' as has been previously suggested by some is to abandon not only the work of so many that you guys or myself would not dare spit in the face of but also to abandon the "political capital" and connections the Association has. We can't underestimate that.Quote:
As someone posted earlier in the thread, there appears to be a spark of inspiration on the VAF site to collect proxies and attempt to elect one or more directors who better represent the homebuilt movement. Without a significant effort, it will be very hard to overcome the advantage the current EAA proxy process gives to the powers that be...
As Paul said, "There's room enough for us all". Perhaps pushing for a representative (or preferably two) from each of the areas of homebuilding would be a good idea? That way, everyone:
-Ultralights
-Ragwings
-Kit builders
-Wood designs
-Composite builders
-Seaplanes
-The "kerosene club"
-Warbirds
-Helicopters
-Auto conversion engine guys
-Et cetera, et cetera
....have a vote and a representative. Paul and his friends put too much time and effort into this to let it die. If the majority of EAA members support such a move, I say go for it. My only fear is that we simply wind up with a "new dictator" who caters to a different special interest group and this cycle starts over again.
All of that said....
Here's my practical question: If we get rid of the big vendors, the sponsorships, et cetera, how precisely are they supposed to fund the event? You start doing away with that stuff, membership rates go up to cover the costs of the event. People will gripe about that. They start doing away with aspects of the show to keep costs down. People will gripe about that. Maybe I am looking at this more like a business than whatever you guys who have been around longer than I have see it as....
I hate to admit this, but one of my cousins runs a company that rents them. They generally run about $250 for a weekend rental. Just FYI...not sure how much of a discount you get for "bulk" orders.Quote:
A $40 annual membership prolly covers the weekly rental for 1 portapotty.
And you'd have about half to two-thirds the attendance because you're limiting the audience. Oshkosh- out of all the aviation events I go to annually- is the only place I can get my addiction in all its permutations satisfied in one place.Quote:
As it would be when Mr. Paul was in charge.
Agreed.
Can I have one if I agree to keep a bucket of ice with bottled water in the back? $1 donation to the non-profit that we are starting to sponsor safety research is suggested but not required to take a bottle. It kills two birds with one stone. ;)Quote:
What bothers me most is the golf carts. We're supposed to be DECREASING the number of vehicles at the airshow
See, what is everyone so worried about? Homebuilt parking, front and center as it should be at the EAA extravaganza, is given to the high rollers and the planes that used to be an important part of the show are shuffled off to a corner of the car parking and told that it's a "...HUGE win "......
Somebody is drinking too much of the koolaid.
YES, they ARE renting out flight line space and shoving us out of the way. This greed is getting out of control.
"someone has drunk the koolaid" was my EXACT thought there too!
My estimate from the EAA brochure is that 19 homebuilding parking spots will be lost from the flightline, leaving just 17 spots in that area. So we lose more than 50% of the prime flightline exposure space for homebuilt aircraft.
But we've got some new parking spots out in the boonies, whoop de doo.
I don't have 60 years of experience that a few of you guys do, but when I think back on my 10 years of coming to Oshkosh, I don't feel that what I'm saying is drinking the koolaid. I love AirVenture. Every aspect of it. Always have. It's a great place to see thousands of homebuilts, warbirds, vintage airplanes, aerobatic airplanes, Ultralights, helicopters, seaplanes, big planes, little planes. It's a great airshow. It's a great time to meet with friends in the campground. It's a great place to see new and innovative designs and panel technology. A great place to meet with vendors. The list goes on.
It's just a fantastic week! It has been for me for 10 years. I'm now on staff at EAA. That doesn't change the fact that what I like about AirVenture has always been what I like about AirVenture. A great show, and I want to see it succeed and be available for generations of aviation people to come.
BTW, most people that I talk to do not want to park on the flightline. And that goes back decades where people simply don't want that many people swarming their pride and joy.
And it now becomes much clearer why EAA took a position against the AirVenture Cup, this new chalet area is slap dang in the middle of where the racers usually park.
I already decided to miss Oshkosh for only the second time in 40 years because I can't afford the steep rise in admission for my wife (50% price rise).
We won't be back.
Well thank God some of those homebuilts will now be parked in a location where it'll be nice to stroll through them, and take time for a good look. Keep the masses holed up in the middle of the grounds and away from the nice projects!
However, it would be nice if there was a prominent homebuilt presence in front of the masses. Everyone that leaves OSH should know that its possible for them to build an aircraft in their garage! That is not the case today.
Finally, no more !$^&!#%&@#$&*%@#$%&*@&@% golf carts!!!!!! To make it worse, these new carts are specifically for people who want to feel entitled. Ugh!
Chad I don't think one can argue that there is not enough Antique parking - we didn't come close to filling the area around the Hangar Cafe last year.
The problem is the increasing stratification of the Oshkosh society. Some pigs are better than other pigs.
My wife and I have hoofed it everywhere with our four kids in tow, one in a stroller, only to be run off the road by teenagers in six-seat golf carts out joyriding. WE can't bring a golf cart, or rent one. We can't even ride our bikes on the flight line. But folks on corporate expense accounts (many of whom are actually being PAID to be there) get to cruise right up to their air-conditioned tents.
I see the corporate business sense in this. I can also guarantee it will not be well-received by the old-school members.
Just a quick comment on the golf carts - while I DO agree with you that there are entirely too many golf carts on the grounds, I would like to point out that as an EAA staff member, the carts are ESSENTIAL for doing our jobs during AirVenture. Most of us wear numerous "hats" during AirVenture, which means we have multiple areas we are responsible for. Unfortunately, most of those areas are not adjacent to one another on the grounds. Until teleporters become a reality, the carts are a must for timely movement around the grounds. In my case running the Timeless Voices oral history program, carts are a necessity for transporting WWII veterans and other interviewees from the grounds to the museum where the recording studios are located and back again in a timely manner.
Just my opinion here, but I think ALL the cart operators need to slow down a bit and we all - pedestrians and cart operators both - need to be more wary of our surroundings.
Zack
Only half true- this goes back to the mid-90s, when the flightline was opened up to the masses in the name of being more inclusive (and selling more flightline passes- anybody remember them, like pit passes?) When that happened the flightline was not longer safe and many old timers vowed never to bring their airplanes back.
Zach, while you are absolutely correct concerning staff (and many volunteers for that matter) this kind of misses the point. Unnecessary vehicle traffic is the issue, not necessary traffic. It is worth noting that the new location of the chalets is within the "no vehicle zone" established several years ago (a good idea.) How is that going to square with the idea of giving golf carts to the high rollers at the chalets?
Wait, I've got it- valet parking!
Downsizing maybe? Ok, I know this won't be popular at headquarters. There can be a point where more isn't better, it is just more! Simplicity, core display of aircraft. A simple presentation, this is supposedly a club gathering or at least that was the initial roots. Side shows to attract more visitors, that are not really more than just more numbers. The organization wants to be "inclusive" in statements I see here. That is well and good but there is so much "extra" around the core and the event is so big that it has really diluted the message. Chalets are certainly indicative of this and may I say exclusive, not inclusive. Sometimes families downsize to refocus resources toward what is important and this might be another way to be more inclusive for the organization. This is after all a club event about aircraft and celebrating personal aviation and the dream of that. It seems to have strayed a bit.
I can't say anything but the fact that the NBAA and their setup was very inclusive. I was treated well, give free drinks and told to enjoy the air conditioning as long as I liked.Quote:
Chalets are certainly indicative of this and may I say exclusive, not inclusive
Admittedly yes. However, I see no justification to turn around and discriminate against fellow pilots simply based on their interests. The whole "some pigs are better than others" argument seems to be a little odd given that you all are arguing that your 'pig' deserves a better parking space than some other 'pig'.Quote:
Assuming facts not in evidence.
I wouldn't want my plane parked up there but that's just me. I don't plan to ever go to Oshkosh to try to show off my airplane so I guess that makes me a bit odd.Quote:
When that happened the flightline was not longer safe and many old timers vowed never to bring their airplanes back.
As for the personally, there's a reason why I've always joked that one could fit a parked airplane with something like the "internal ursine deterrent" system described in Michael Crichton's The Lost World. Nothing says "Do not touch" like a couple hundred volts at a low enough amperage to be unpleasant but not harmful.
Show me any large event that is not or does not become about that.Quote:
But repeatedly we see that the Association views it as a corporate event about money.
Exactly. To me it's about seeing old friends, making new ones and scoring as much "free" stuff as I can from people I'll probably never buy anything from. It's also about figuring out what I want to copy in my design for my personal aircraft.Quote:
Probably most attendees would agree with that. And they still enjoy themselves enormously.