I don't have a pilot's license, but know I want a homebuilt plane. I'd like to build the plane and then learn to fly it.
Is that possible?
Thanks in advance,
Ken
:)
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I don't have a pilot's license, but know I want a homebuilt plane. I'd like to build the plane and then learn to fly it.
Is that possible?
Thanks in advance,
Ken
:)
You absolutely can do it that way, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've known more than one person who thought flying would be the greatest thing ever, then after 5 or 10 hours of instruction decided it wasn't for him/her. You wouldn't want to build an entire airplane without really knowing that you'll enjoy flying it.
If you go that route, I'd suggest learning to fly while building.
At least solo, then you will have a good feel for flying and whether to spend the time to build or just buy and fly.
Biggest issue i see is, you legally can't fly off the 40 test hours on your plane if you aren't already a pilot
Mike hits it on the head. The other big problem with the "build, then learn to fly in it" concept is 2 people can't be in the plane until the 40 hours are flown off (ok, there's some nitpicking exceptions discussed in another thread on here somewhere, but certainly not an instructor / student pilot situation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Switzer
So, what you would have is a brand-new non-flight-tested homebuilt and no license. You would have to find someone ELSE to fly it for 40 hours (or more) to get the required Phase I flight testing out of the way. Then you would have to find an instructor, who, if not experienced in that type, at least experienced enough to be willing to try and instruct in that type (or willing to get transition training, fly your plane solo for a few hours - whatever they feel they need to be comfortable instructing in it). Depending on the type, that might prove difficult, if not impossible, if it's not a simple low/slow kind of airplane.
Then, you would beat the snot out of your nearly-new, carefully hand-crafted over several years airplane with the trials of learning to fly. Why not rent someone else's TRAINER that's intended to take some, let's say "new pilot" abuse?
Before investing the money and time in building an airplane, I would STRONGLY recommend getting the license FIRST. Then, when you're into the build project, you can reserve maybe 1-2x / month to go out and do a little flight in a rental. Or, for that matter, your flight training experience (and EAA chapter participation, getting into the build, meeting other builders) might get you into situations where you get some flight time without it being in a rental...
And to throw one more into the mix, flying an airplane will teach you what sort of flying you want to do - which is critical in selecting which plane to build!
Nothing confirmed for me my decision to build an open cockpit slow as molasses biplane more than getting behind the stick of a Champ - especially after learning in a very high speed (relatively) and ultra modern CTLS.
Depends on your main interest. I've been building my project for 5 years now and Im still not a pilot. I've taken lesson on and off during the five years, and have discovered that I really enjoy building my plane more than I like flying. Now that may change after I fly mine since it will be considerably more of a challenge that the Cherokee I've been flying in. Flying Cherokee is like is like driving a dodge neon. I'm trying to time my pilots license with the time I'm ready to fly. I have a buddy that got his license first and has been building his airplane for two years and hasnt flown since he got his license. I want my training information more fresh when it comes time to actually fly.
About a year and a half ago I decided that I wanted to build an fly a high performance airplane. I got a RV-6 kit that had been sitting in storage for about a decade and a half and started lessons. Somewhere along the way I realized that the cost of air time especially with instruction in a rented aircraft was killing me. At one point I had to put my lessons on hold for at least half a year for lack of funds. Anyhow, after a while the realization came to me that:
1> I was going to have my PPL a while before my RV was ready.
2> My skill set was likely to rot during the period between those two events.
3> It's probably a good idea to become proficient in a more user friendly airplane before hopping into a high performance two seater.
We had some money come in and I bought a '58 Piper Tripacer. It gives me something to fly while I'm building the RV and unless it's involved in an accident it will hold it's value.
Okay, so I'm another member of the small minority that is building before getting lessons. And actually, the build is my means to an end. How can I have a plane and not get my sport pilot certificate!? This will finally get me off the dime.
I saw an ad for Zenith, and fell in love with the lines of the 701/750. My 701 is mostly done minus the expensive stuff: instruments and FWF. Engine buy is next January.
I too thought I could save all kinds of money and use the plane for lessons etc. - wrong. But if I knew this before hand, maybe I wouldn't have bought the kit...?
My plan now is to kill two birds with one stone. I plan to take the accelerated course in Buzz Air's 750. This gets me a certificate and transition training since the two are so nearly the same. I may still need someone for first flights, but I want to believe I'll be able to fly off most of the 40 hours of test flying.
I've loved the build and am looking forward to learning. :)
Good luck Jo - but you bring up another somewhat potentially scary point. Is it really a good idea for a freshly-minted barely-minimum-hours-for-the-license (read more or less completely inexperienced) pilot to be doing the first flights and phase I flight testing on a brand new, never-been-tested airplane? Let's say Buzz Air's place is somewhere else, you're going to go to some other part of the country, probably learn at a pilot-controlled (uncontrolled / non-towered) field, slam through a quick course, then return to your home area.
Inevitably, a few months pass, then things get to the point where you are going to make a first flight in a brand new, just built airplane. Not only "just" learning a new airport, a new pattern, where traffic comes from and goes to getting in and out of there, maybe working with a different kind of traffic - more jets, more instrument training, hotrod Bonanza pilots calling multi-mile straight-ins and expecting you to compensate (my "problem" last weekend), remembering what you learned, remembering what switches to throw in what order, remembering what radios to tune to what frequencies and when, trying to deciper what's that buzzing in the headset, what's that smell, what's that sound, why's that feel that way, where do I turn to get to the runway?
You're going to find out if:
You built it all right. All the wires are going to hold the smoke in, or better yet, not set something on fire. You're going to monitor engine instruments you've never flown with before that look into an engine that has never flown before - and instantaneously make sense of that data (remember - where's the pattern, where's that traffic, I'm supposed to say what, push what, flip what, pull what, hear what) - is that normal, or does that indicate a leak? Should I just go around the pattern and land? Why's the stick pulling so hard? Why's the ball so far off-center? Does that look right? Why did I invite so many people to watch? Did I put the fire extinguisher on board? Is that overcast high enough? What's the wind doing? What am I doing about the wind? Man, those power lines are close.
And then there's daylight under the tires for the first time...
Good luck with all that.
Thanks Eric for the thoughtful response. You have a nice of way of presenting the (potentially) harsh truth with just enough humor to show that you care. I will take your advice very much to heart.
I believe you can use your plane if it is certified to fly off the 40 hrs and you have soloed. You must also find an instructor who will finish your instructions in your plane. That is my hope. You can not fly your homebuild if your are not certified for that perticular plane even if you have your LSA license.
"You can not fly your homebuild if your are not certified for that perticular plane even if you have your LSA license."
Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain that comment further? I am contemplating building a single seat, experimental LSA airplane. If I was only a light sport certified pilot, how would I go about getting certified to fly my homebuilt?
FAA 61.315 says a sport pilot cannot be PIC: "(16) Contrary to any limit or endorsement on your pilot certificate, airman medical certificate, or any other limit or endorsement from an authorized instructor." Would I need an endorsement for a particular plane or category under the LSA rules? If I have an endorsement for an LSA taildragger can I fly any LSA taildragger?
Congrats JoFredrick. That's what it's all about. BTW, what will you be using for a powerplant?
If your airport of choice is a class that the basic sport polot license does not permit, C, D, make sure when you go for your SLA license you insist the instructor adds the needed qualifications.
Thanks for both of your "watch outs" SprintUS1. Since I'm in or near crowded airspace here in NJ, the C, D is appropriate.
I may truck my completed airplane south to a completion center to have them go over it prior to first flight and check out by a DAR. Hopefully I can get someone to do the first couple hours there as well. If your suspicions are correct about needing checkout in a 701 (versus the 750 I plan on learning in), and since you can't pay someone to check you out in a typical 701, do I need to rely on gratis for a checkride?
By the way, Petemitchell, I think I heard or read recently that for a single seater, there are special rules for checkrides etc. Can't remember where though.
Finally, Martymayes, I've purchased and drilled an engine mount for a Jabiru 2200. This is based on Roger (at Zenith's) comment to me during my demo flight that he would like to have one in their demonstrator. This was a year and a half ago, and other engines are being demo'd at Zenith, but they are all too new for me.
I can't wait to find out how this all turns out. So many pleasant problems to solve.
You CAN get a checkride in a single seater but your certificate will carry limitations. It is a bit difficult, though, in getting dual instruction in a single seater;) Check the FARs for how the checkride is given and what restrictions will apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFredrick
Not necessarily.Quote:
Would I need an endorsement for a particular plane or category under the LSA rules? If I have an endorsement for an LSA taildragger can I fly any LSA taildragger?
The infamous "sets" of LSA aircraft are gone, but there is still the "greater than" and "less than" 87 knot endorsements.
For example, I did my training in a Flight Design CTLS, which has a cruise speed greater than 87 knots. So I was okay to fly any trike LSA that fit the bill.
When I got my tailwheel training in a Champ, I picked up two endorsements - tailwheel and aircraft less than 87 knots (make sure BOTH get put in the logbook!). The tailwheel works for both airspeed categories, though.
So now I can fly any LSA compliant aircraft that isn't on floats!
One doesn't need a formal checkride for the other airspeed endorsement, btw; just a signoff from a CFI. Which in reality is a friendly sort of checkride that resembles a flight review. We went through all the standard tasks (slow flight, stalls, etc.) as transition training to another aircraft anyway, so might as well get credit for it!
On controlled airspace: while a student the endorsement for controlled airspace is only for the type of airspace one has been signed off on; for example, if one is signed off on for Class D, one can't fly into Class C unless that endorsement is specifically placed in the logbook as well. Once the SP permit is granted, though, one endorsement for controlled airspace allows one into all.
I wouldn't recommend it. I may be new to flying, but I know a lot about planes. If you are new to flying, don't start by building a plane. Start by getting experienced in a plane you feel safe in. Once you have a high performance rating, I recommend the Cirrus SR22 model. Once you have skill, and feel comfortable with flying in potentially hazardous situations, then build a plane.
Wow Ranger, your words seem more fear-based than cautious, and your suggestions seem a tad dogmatic. I think you are doing what is best for you, and others of us may do things differently. Life is about choices, weighing pros and cons, that sort of thing. Oh, and it should also be about fun. Best to you.
Where would one find an SR22 to rent? Not everybody has a wealthy parent with a Cirrus and an Eclipse, you know... I suspect if the OP could afford an SR22, he'd probably buy one instead of building a plane. A high-performance rating is not necessary for most homebuilts. I'm also not sure why you're insinuating that building a plane means one would be 'flying in potentially hazardous situations'. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerofthewest
You may 'know a lot about planes', but remember that you are young and there are people that have been building/flying airplanes for what amounts to several times your lifetime. A little humility would do you well.;)
Learning to fly before or during the time you build your plane will make your plane turn out even better. If you've never flown before, you don't know what you like. I know that if I built my own plane from scratch, it would be drastically different now than if I decided to build it before I got my license. Experience gives you a taste of what you're comfortable with, what preferences you like, etc.
Best of luck~
The most important thing is to fall in love with your build. The second is to BEG A RIDE, You do not have to learn to fly to build. Building is an oppurtunity, Money. space, HUNGER. Dont build beyond your ability if you cant buy parts. Remember the cost of firewall forward. You should NEVER change the plans to what you think is right. Flying may give you a feel how the controls should feel but remember you are building to plans and the advice and experience of others THAT ARE FLYING the plane you to are building. When you get your license and your build is years away what do you do with your skill? Rent planes. This will take all your money away from building your dream. I will finish my Sprint 2012 and then get my sport license fly off my 40 and be wonderful.
Joe Goldman
Sprint N198JL
I had always wanted to build an airplane but had not really looked into very deeply. A friend from the days when my Dad ran a Hobby Shop contacted me about making some parts for a Grumman Wildcat. He owned a Pitts (and what model builder doesn't love a Pitts) and after looking it over I knew this was something I could build. My friend was starting an Air Center and asked if I was interested in learning to fly.(dumb question) I saw a copy of Homebuilt Aircraft (1982) at the news stand that had John Monett's Sonerai design on the cover and being a big fan of the early Goodyear Racers I was hooked. I don't really remember which came first, ordering the kit or taking my first lesson but they all happened in the scope of about a week. I learned to fly as I was building which took almost exactly 2 years. I got checked out in a 65HP J-3 and with about 85 hours in my Log Book I test flew my Sonerai. The experience was great.Attachment 1327
Matt. I don't know about Kansas, but you can rent a Cirrus SR-20 at Leading Edge at Loveland, Colo, FNL,and I think there is a school at Denver Metro that has plastic wonders also.
That is how I am doing it. Just finishing up an RV-12 and the flying lessons begin just as soon as the test phase is over. I found that by building before learning how to fly has helped me to understand more about an aircraft than any textbook could ever do.
Learn flying and enjoy the feeling of flying, it's wonderful
I have to put my 2 cents in here. Do not do what I have done!!!
This is about building before not knowing how to fly.
There is a way and I took that way. It is worse than any of your resolves here you have training available for many of the planes you would build.
I not only chose to build before learning. I chose to build from scratch and design my own.
Now I am stuck being the test pilot and no training .How is this you say, THE U/L needs no certificate
I am scared! I am concerned ! I wish I took training before I built! I had money problems so I told myself why pay for training if you haven't anything to fly. Because you should that's all and for me mostly back when I began, it was available now its not.
I will fly it and its a seaplane. I bit off more than I can chew. I hope I live through it and hurt no one doing it!!!
I do have the help of a CFI but its at a distance. I am very thankful for even that.
Off subject, but I may have some photos of that airplane. I remember seeing it at a fly-in, a N. Louisiana airport sometime during the '80's. Perhaps one of the famed "Louisiana Championship Fly-in Series" lol. First 2L Sonerai I had ever seen in person and I later had a 2L project in progress for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I'm not a builder, but I have owned a couple of planes. Two things come to mind about building before learning to fly.
First is, how do you know what you want? When I was learning I thought a C150 would suit me fine. After enough hours of going slow, I wanted a Grumman. After taking people up with me and needing to carry a little luggage, I wanted an Arrow. After seeing the maintenance requirements I wanted a Warrior. After trying a few small airports with rough grass strips I wanted a C172. What I ended up with was a TriPacer. Funny thing is I never thought about them when I started looking, and I can't think of anything else I'd rather have now. All the other planes stopped me from doing at least one thing I later found I liked doing. Deciding what your mission is when you have no experience seems a little odd. Same for spending years building a high performance traveling machine and finding out you like slow cruising to little airstrips for pancake breakfasts.
Second is, how do you know what the cockpit should be like or what "improvements" you'd like to make? If I had a nickel for every RV builder that stuffed their panels with enough gizmos to make a 747 driver jealous, only to find out they just use the gps, I'd be rich. How do you know what the sight picture for landing is like before you decide to build the seat with a few extra degrees of tilt? Is a constant speed prop worth it to you? Really? Or are you just going by what other people said? Do you want to be one of the cool kids with a taildragger or a girlieman with a tricycle that has never had to worry about a groundloop? As a builder you are free to make changes, but it seems like a waste to spend months getting something perfect only to find out a different configuration is needed.
For me, getting a different airplane just costs money. For builders, I'd imagine there would be a little pride lost in realizing you built the wrong plane. Maybe to the point of suffering through it's drawbacks instead of selling or building another?
Jo, Me being 14 I think I know how you feel. But with everyone I meet my age and older than me, I try to encourage them to take a Discovery Flight and fly a plane around a bit so they know what they are getting into. Some people or I should say most people fall in love, while a very few percent of others dont.
Just curious... Do you have a test flight program planned out??Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Langlois
Yes
There is a plan layout for the taxi test
For now I am not to get airborne. After I get comfortable with handling it. It moves to skimming and progresses very slowly,to short hops.
Its all written down as discussed with the cfi. All was interrupted by control problems and the testing is on hold till I finish the new tail.
A suggested ground school reading .See How It Flies .was the beginning and now its been a year and I will need to revue all that before I start again.
You can fallow my progress its posted in the ultralight Strip in these forums I keep it up to date. Norms flying boat by Grant Smith
I was comfortable with the low speed handling it was a bit more like jet skiing with bad control at the half throttle.
there are video links on the post.
Still Scared I can only hope I have better control the next time.
Check out this book as well...
http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Testing...7377138&sr=8-1
Thanks I will
Building and flying are both neat things to do. Many people prefer one to the other! For what that's worth ...
My recommendation is this.
Step 1: Go out to the airport and RENT an airplane and take lessons until you have Soloed. By that time you have a pretty good idea if this flying thing is something you want to do or not.
Step 2: Buy an inexpensive airplane. It can be anything from an old Chief or Taylorcraft to a Cessna 150. The Cessna 150 will probably be the cheapest! Then learn to fly in it.
Step 3: While you are learning to fly in your own airplane, go ahead and start building the airframe of your choice. Do NOT buy an engine now. You will probably spend several years building the airframe.
Step 4: By this time you are probably a fairly competent pilot with some experience under you belt. By this time you will have reached the point on your homebuilt where you have to go out and buy an engine. There is no such thing as a cheap aircraft engine. So, sell your trainer. Use the money you get to get the engine you need.
Step 5: Finish your homebuilt. Now you are capable of flying off the flight test period yourself. Make sure that you actually do flight test the airplane while you are doing that. Then you are good to go. Enjoy ...
Search the homebuilt market for a good inexpensive basic trainer. You will find they may be less expensive than you think. Do not purchase, however, unless you can find an experianced pilot, instructor, mechanic and airport bum to give you an oppinion. Then make your decision and offer your price, not the asking price.
If that does not work, reconsider going the build before you fly route forwarned by Norm's comments. I am working with Norm and togeather we will make it happen. Bottom line, do what you want but do it wisely and carefully. It will take much more time and effort than you can imagine but it can be worth it in the end.