Smoke Oil

In looking at some of the flying at Oshkosh, I noticed that large volume of smoke, particularly from some planes like Aeroshell and on some still moist days.

I wonder what the health aspects of breathing this oil are on people. I've never seen anything on this or any studies of it, but I doubt if it is good for us. As I understand it, corvus oil is just as thin petroleum oil, so the fumes probably have the same harmful effects as any such oil. If it is not good for fish to have oil dumped it the Gulf, how bad is it for people? Normal engine oil has warnings with it that it is harmful and should not be on your skin for long exposure. And many oils,like regular cooking oil become carcogenic if they are heated enough to smoke. I wonder if corvus oil is heated in the exhaust?

Does anyone have any studies on this? That is facts, not just opinions?
It seems strange that the EPA goes after exhaust from even lawnmowers, and gas fumes when you pump at the service station, but not this as far as I know.

Is there any other substance used as smoke oil besides corvus? And is there some no harmful substitue that could be used?
What so skywriter planes use?

I am sure someone will say that smoke oil has been used for years in airshows, therefore must be safe. I doubt it. For years, for decades, tobacco smoking went on, even indoors and in cars and around kids, but we now know how harmful it was and is.
I could watch an airshow act without the smoke just as well.

It's the benzopyrenes (and all the related chemicals) that when heated for the HCAs that become problematic especially for the cook or as in asia the patron who is eating while things are being cooked at the table.

Petroleum products have these in abundance as well. The bigger difference is while you might be inclined to stay close to that sizzling wok of whatever in preparation or anticipation of eating, most people won't tolerate hanging out in visible smoke.

Cars and just leakage from car related activities (servicing, fueling) dump tons of this stuff into the environment more so than airshows ever will.

As for alternatives, there all as bad. The common thing other than the Texaco brand Corvus oil is to use light hydraulic oil which you can get at Walmart in 5 gallon buckets (especially in tractor country). The composition is pretty much the same.

Don't get me started on the tobacco stuff, much of that policy is not based on science but the pariah effect. The issue with second hand smoke is those who are exposed to it are usually in way close proximity for extended periods (living in the same house with a smoker). I'll not digress further in this forum on this subject.

Ron, I don't know if hydraulic oil is worse to breathe the fumes than Corvus or engine oil, but it sure smells worse. One of my planes has hydraulic oil powered gear and a small leak stinks for a long time. The engine oil leaks don.t smell great but not as bad.
I don't know what you mean about smoking dangers "not based on science". Certainly the dangers of smoking, first or second hand are well proven and have been for years, Even tobacco cos don't argue about it anymore.
Lung cancer is not a myth or opinion , its a fact.
Sometimes airshow oil smoke seems to disapate int the air, but sometime if the wind is wrong it blows right on the crowd. I"ve seen planes take off with their smoke on and really soak folks and planes nearby. Saw one, probably a CJ or similar do that departing rnwy 9, blew right on the controllers, marshallers and other planes waiting to take off.

I'm not saying say the smoking dangers are not based on science, I said the legislation that has been instigated isn't based on the actual science of the data

However, the issue is that the stuff you can see in the airshow smoke is also being dumped into the air by the normal operation of cars, aircraft, whatever.

These are natural biodegradable oils that have found many uses in substitution for petroleum.

Here's the MSDS for the AeroShell smoke oil:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00019493.PDF

Keep in mind that smoke oil is not being burned, it's being vaporized. If it was burned, the smoke would be black. The high parrafin content causes the very visible white vaporization.

I myself have been looking for a decent smoke solution and have done a bit of research and have even experimented
with various concoctions and alchemy.

Some wingtip type smoke displays are nothing more than distress smoke canisters.

These also sublimate as opposed to burn the media that is visible as smoke and are likely not good for your complexion if you wander into a cloud of it.

I have never heard of a completely non-hazardous type of visible compound that produces a suitable
trail behind an aircraft.

Water is about a close to it as you can get but does not seem very practical or satisfactory.

Vaporized Corvus oil is likely too low in concentration and the exposure too brief to result in any damage.

A persons risk is much greater from smokers, Coal burning generators (40% of US supplied electricity comes from coal so stop charging your electric cars and be environmentally friendly ;)) and automobile fumes since you live in those fumes 24/7.

Ray

All of the health issues that result from contact with various substances require two factors to actually create a problem. First, the one that we worry about, is the material itself and its properties. The second is length of exposure.

In the case of smoke oil, it is at its worst only mildly toxic. It is actually formulated as a concrete form release oil. I believe that it is commonly used in construction and if it was a contact hazard, OSHA would be all over it.

Then there is length of exposure. IF you make a point of going to lots and lots of airshows and positioning yourself so that you breath the maximum amount, you might get yourself a respiratory problem. For all of the other airshow spectators, the exposure is very very small. The performers get the most exposure as it is common for the airplane to suck the smoke into the cockpit through any openings in the lower tail. No reports of awful health issues that can be traced to breathing vaporized Canopus oil.

Any alternative is much more expensive. And Canopus oil is not cheap as it is.

Wingtip smokes are all pyrotechnic to the best of my knowledge. All of the smoke generators that I have used combust inside the canister and get very hot externally while making smoke. Do NOT recommend them for casual use.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

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Originally Posted by WLIU

Wingtip smokes are all pyrotechnic to the best of my knowledge. N78PS

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Wes, I think Herb Baker's system on his T28 uses wingtip heaters and regular smoke oil

T-28's have a pretty good electrical system so I will believe that you could run some pretty good power out to the wingtips to generate smoke. The jet acts can also do that as well. And I gather that the jets also can get enough exhaust heat into the chemistry of the process to generate centerline colored smoke. Different colors are different chemistries.

That said, the more common airshow acts rely on pyro on their wingtips with electrical firing systems.

Enjoy the show. :)

Wes
N78PS

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Originally Posted by WLIU

All of the health issues that result from contact with various substances require two factors to actually create a problem. First, the one that we worry about, is the material itself and its properties. The second is length of exposure.

In the case of smoke oil, it is at its worst only mildly toxic. It is actually formulated as a concrete form release oil. I believe that it is commonly used in construction and if it was a contact hazard, OSHA would be all over it.

Then there is length of exposure. IF you make a point of going to lots and lots of airshows and positioning yourself so that you breath the maximum amount, you might get yourself a respiratory problem. For all of the other airshow spectators, the exposure is very very small. The performers get the most exposure as it is common for the airplane to suck the smoke into the cockpit through any openings in the lower tail. No reports of awful health issues that can be traced to breathing vaporized Canopus oil.

Any alternative is much more expensive. And Canopus oil is not cheap as it is.

Wingtip smokes are all pyrotechnic to the best of my knowledge. All of the smoke generators that I have used combust inside the canister and get very hot externally while making smoke. Do NOT recommend them for casual use.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

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Wes, that may be true but there is a third factor you have not included in your comment and that's what I refer to as immersion exposure. As you say, the effects of a small dose of a lightly toxic substance on occasion is not a great danger in itself, but there is so much toxicity in our environment already, that occasional exposure is no longer an adequate measure of heath risk level.
The entire world and a good deal of space in and around the earth has been tainted by man and there is no escape from it. We are all immersed in toxic substances whether we like it or not. How all those compounds interact is yet to be understood. Air show smoke is nice to look at but in fact just one more violation on our environment. Will mother nature evolve beyond all this toxicity?

I appreciate that everyone has a different level of concern about the world around us. There comes a point though where you have to decide whether your fears about the uncertainties are going to prevent you from living your life. I will offer the suggestion that any risks associated with partly burned smoke oil are greatly ourweighed by the enjoyment of the show. I think that the risks from attending an airshow are much lower than the risks from attending most other motorsports events. But there are folks who don't enjoy or attend any motorsports events at all. I think those folks are missing a lot of fun.

That may not be your calculation.

My background of 1600 parachute jumps and performing in night airshows with pyro racked up my right leg probably make my risk calculations different than yours. Neither better or worse, just different.

Hope that you have fun in aviation.

Wes

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Originally Posted by CShark

Here's the MSDS for the AeroShell smoke oil:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00019493.PDF

Keep in mind that smoke oil is not being burned, it's being vaporized. If it was burned, the smoke would be black. The high parrafin content causes the very visible white vaporization.

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You beat me to it.

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are likely not good for your complexion if you wander into a cloud of it.

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Neither is standing in the wash of a radial engine when it starts. ;) I have a picture of myself looking like a Dalmatian as a result of that.

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My background of 1600 parachute jumps and performing in night airshows with pyro racked up my right leg

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You, sir, are awesome.

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Originally Posted by WLIU

I appreciate that everyone has a different level of concern about the world around us. There comes a point though where you have to decide whether your fears about the uncertainties are going to prevent you from living your life. I will offer the suggestion that any risks associated with partly burned smoke oil are greatly ourweighed by the enjoyment of the show. I think that the risks from attending an airshow are much lower than the risks from attending most other motorsports events. But there are folks who don't enjoy or attend any motorsports events at all. I think those folks are missing a lot of fun.

That may not be your calculation.

My background of 1600 parachute jumps and performing in night airshows with pyro racked up my right leg probably make my risk calculations different than yours. Neither better or worse, just different.

Hope that you have fun in aviation.

Wes

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Let me first say that your tolerance and understanding of other views is credit worthy and somewhat rare these days, so thank you for that.

I'm not as adventuresome as you, never having strapped pyros to my body, but I feel that we are on the same page. I'm not a hard nose environmentalist and I do appreciate a good airshow and other venues, but in the back of my mind I'm acutely aware and concerned of the price future generations will have to pay for our indiscretions. My point is/was that we must make a conscious effort to minimize waste and reduce pollution where ever and when ever we can for the sake of our children. And with that in mind, I believe that we can enjoy an airshow just as much without the smoke and pyros. And guess what, it also makes it safer for the performers. A win win situation!

Guys, my two main points are that there is almost certainly some level of health danger in being exposed to smoke oil. As for how bad the oil is or how much exposure we get, that is open to discusssion. I do know that the labels of many oils say to avoid prolonged exposure on your skin or in breathing. Now the oil may often be diluted when it reaches the crowd or often blow downwind, but not always.
Let's say you went to a play about the attack on the Polesti refinery and they had actual oil fires burning inside the theater or you went to a play about the 9-11 collapse of the world trade center buildings,and they had actual clouds of dust all over you ,just like the real thing. Would this be ok, would you want your children to breathe and be exposed to it? Would you like to take your kids or yourself to one of those Vegas casinos that are thick with cigarette smoke?Of course not.
So if the airshow or acro act wants to use smoke oil, they ought to have the warning as part of their pre sho notice to the public. Then let the public decide it they want to stand there and breathe it.
And of course as BRP says we don't really need to have smoke oil to have a show or an acro act. If you go to some states and some big cities, there are so many billboards that they almost block the sky. But here there are laws against such billboards and free standing signs. So no business has them, no one is at a disadvantage, no one needs to make such a standout.
We can certainly have good airshows without smoke oil, and it will be better for our health and for the environment.

I honestly agree that I'd be just as comfortable without the smoke. I don't see what it really adds to the show. Then again, I don't really pay much attention to the airshow part of Oshkosh so I am more or less ambivalent on the matter. The only time I went down to the edge of the runway this year was to watch Fifi depart.

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

I honestly agree that I'd be just as comfortable without the smoke. I don't see what it really adds to the show. Then again, I don't really pay much attention to the airshow part of Oshkosh so I am more or less ambivalent on the matter. The only time I went down to the edge of the runway this year was to watch Fifi depart.

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That's my feeling, too. It's just for show, but it's not a defining factor.
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Alexandra from Ci Analytics

Wow! Digging up a 12 year old thread! The original posters are long gone.

Best of luck,

Wes

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Originally Posted by WLIU

Wow! Digging up a 12 year old thread! The original posters are long gone.

Best of luck,

Wes

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Yup, the smoke got them.


BJC

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Originally Posted by BJC

Yup, the smoke got them.

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I thought it was, "Smoke them if you got them"?

Ron "I'll be here all week" Wanttaja