A question about assessing a ramp queen for purchase (disassembly of the wings...)

I spy, with my little eye... a 1969 Cherokee 140 that looks like it hasn't been flown in years. This is at a local GA airport. I think I see (from the closest I can get to it) a broken-out passenger door window, the paint looks BAD... really bad, and even a baseball-sized hole in the pilot's window (although that could be just a vent hole that has lost its fitting). The front tire is flat. The spinner is missing.
Anyway, I am considering buying it as a project, but I would like to know the condition of the main spar connection bolt holes. Did that proposed AD get passed on the PA-28/32 wings? I can't find it on line. All I can find are articles about a "proposed" AD. I am in the middle of getting in touch with the owner to see if he is interested in selling. Since I have gathered that just removing the wings to inspect could cost up to $3000, I was wondering if it would be LEGAL... for me to disassemble the wings from the fuselage, as if I was going to transport the plane to a hanger by trailer (because really, I probably would do that in the first place if I bought it), and then have an A/P inspect the holes, and if no defects were found, supervise me reassembling the wings to the fuselage? IOW, is it all about the re-attachment, or BOTH the detachment AND re-attachment?

George

You can take anything apart that you want, you only need the A&P to return it to service.

Thank you, sir!

There may be very good rea$$$ons why the Cherokee was abandoned...... :)

I see derelict airplanes and think what a waste but you really need to stop and think about the financial and time commitment to rebuild it. We had a guy just give up on ironically a PA28 simply due to the cost for replacement parts and went the RV route.

We have several ramp rats at our local airport, have looked them over. None of them are worth more than scrap value. Couple of issues to check before even talking to the owner. First, you say some windows are broken or open. If the plane has sat through more than one bird mating season, then the interior and engine compartment is one huge birds nest/toilet. Bird poop is corrosive, and on a Cherokee they may also have got into the fuselage through the tailcone. So to start your going to need a new interior, and a lot of cleaning, primer to fight off more corrosion. Lycoming engines do not sit well unused, it will need a tear down to check cylinders, cam shaft and lifters, minimum. It may cost you more than buying a good flying airplane.

Then dealing with the owner. My experience, they either lost their medical and think at age 80 plus, they will get it back someday. Or, they think their $5000 birds nest is worth $50,000 cause that is what they see the top of the line creampuffs go for on Barnstormers.

Good luck, your going to need it!

We don't have any sitting outside here, but there are several in hangars that haven't moved in years, usually due to medical issues. I have looked at a couple after the owners finally decided to sell & I passed because just from what I could see it would cost way more than the plane would be worth (in good condition) to return them to service.

Thanks for all the responses. I realize the chances of this thing being worth it is a total shot in the dark, but that dude... that DUDE... the "This old Cherokee" guy. $1000 plane, put about $6000 in it to get it back in shape. All he's got now are ramp fees, insurance, and annuals. I'm looking for that, and will put in quite a bit of effort before giving up.

The thing is, if it has been sitting for any length of time, you have to assume it will need an engine rebuild. That can get expensive.

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Originally Posted by geosnooker2000

Thanks for all the responses. I realize the chances of this thing being worth it is a total shot in the dark, but that dude... that DUDE... the "This old Cherokee" guy. $1000 plane, put about $6000 in it to get it back in shape. All he's got now are ramp fees, insurance, and annuals. I'm looking for that, and will put in quite a bit of effort before giving up.

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If it takes $6000 to get it back in flying shape, great, but it could also take $30K to put it back into shape, then what?

Restoring an airplane is mostly labor. If you do all the work with no concern for your time the cost of parts is minimal. Even an overhaul or partial engine repair can be done with a mechanic assisting. My first rebuild was a 1946 Chief at age 21.

One listed for sale for $21,500 and this is a flying airplane, all the parts there together and radios and panel that work, engine that runs and can take you for a demo flight. But hey, mabye you can raise the other one from the dead if that is really what you want to spend your time on.
And just a guess but I think most a&ps are going to prefer to annual a flying airplane, rather than a nest of mice, birds etc.

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Originally Posted by Dana

If it takes $6000 to get it back in flying shape, great, but it could also take $30K to put it back into shape, then what?

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I would definitely want to get a pre-buy inspection done by an A&P not currently associated with the plane. I mean, all issues besides the main spar bolt holes, since those are what I'm suggesting is a very expensive inspection (as I said, up to $3000 just to remove the wings).

I use understand your concern about the wing AD but I think you need to get some basic info. Some of which impacts the spar AD.........
What year is this airframe?
What is the AFTT?
When was is last flown?
Why was it parked?
Are all the log available?
Do understand and have a list of all the outstanding service bulletins and ADs that need to be incorporated?
When was the engine last majored?
Have you borescoped the cylinders?
What do the engine logs indicate or tell you?
Do you have an A&P in hand who is willing to work with you?
Do you have the necessary shop space?
Do you have the necessary tooling on hand?
Do you really have the skills to pull this off?
Do you have the time to invest to get this project completed?
Do you realize that almost every system on this plane will need to be gone through and most likely require a rebuild or replacement?
Have you and or your A&P inspected the airframe for corrosion?
Do you really have a handle on the cost of replacement parts in today’s market?
Have you done a balance sheet for the project?
Do you have the financial resources?
Are you married, and if yes, is she OK with what you’re about to undertake?

The above is just a short list. Yes any airplane can be brought back from the dead given enough time, money and determination. It’s tough to separate the emotion & passion from reality. Not trying to rain on your parade but just want you to fully understand the complexity of the task you are contemplating.

Sounds to me like IF the above excellent beginner checklist is answered and acceptable to you and IF it indeed is a $1000 project starter abandoned plane then have a ball.

I read enough 'money pit' stories from pilot-owners of used planes bought in flying condition to be too timid to buy one that doesn't even start there.

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Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY

Sounds to me like IF the above excellent beginner checklist is answered and acceptable to you and IF it indeed is a $1000 project starter abandoned plane then have a ball.

I read enough 'money pit' stories from pilot-owners of used planes bought in flying condition to be too timid to buy one that doesn't even start there.

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I don't disagree with you, but.... I think the OP's estimate of $6,000 to get a $1,000 airplane flying is WAY optimistic. In all likelihood, after the airplane is restored, just the first annual inspection will probably run about half that.

On the other hand, $1,000 is basically nothing in aviation. If the OP determines the plane cannot be economically brought back to flying condition, he can get much of his money back by parting out the airplane.

Ron Wanttaja

The salvage yards have more scrapped Cherokees than they know what to do with............................

That's because the cost and hassle of General Aviation has exceeded the value.

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

I use understand your concern about the wing AD but I think you need to get some basic info. Some of which impacts the spar AD.........
What year is this airframe?
What is the AFTT?
When was is last flown?
Why was it parked?
Are all the log available?
......

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That is the $64,000 question.
This plane, when you research the N#, seems to belong to a guy that was an aircraft dealer LLC who got sued in 2013, and if you believe internet chatter, probably did some jail time. He/they have a current website that is completely empty. They have a phone number that only yields a busy signal, and a cell phone number that doesn't get answered. I called the FBO and asked if they knew who owned the plane, and how to get in touch with them. They said they would do a little research and call me back. That was Thursday. Haven't heard a thing. I mean, I'm in no hurry - still financially recovering from Christmas lol. So, Imma wait a little while before I press the issue.

And BTW, @ Ron Wanttaja,
That wasn't my (the O.P.) estimate. I was using this guy as an example of what IS POSSIBLE (not to be confused with probable).
http://www.thisoldcherokee.com/

If you want to know the ownership, there are companies that will perform that for a fee. You start with what the name on the FAA records says. It will either be a US individual (LPR or citizen) or a corporation/LLC/Trust with US entities controlling it. Of course, if the entities are in jail or otherwise unavailable to you, you're screwed.

As pointed out, even if they signed over the title for nothing, you like are going to have more to put in to it than it's going to be worth. The engine alone can swamp the value of an older Cherokee. Add to that everything made of rubber (tire, fuel lines, seals in the carb, etc...) are likely to need replacing. That doesn't even begin to address the nightmare if there is corrosion. While Cherokees don't tend to have a whole lot of ADs on the, there are a few onerous ones (like the wing spar) and if that's not been done, you'll have to have it done (and if necessary fixed), before any IA will sign off the annual. It goes on from there. A poorly researched aircraft is no bargain.

There is one (a PA-28) in a hangar at my airport I have considered purchasing. My thought is that if I can get it for around $5000, and the wings are good. I can buy it, sell the wings and engine core, scrap the rest and park my Yankee in a hangar.

I know I won't be getting a hangar any other way.

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

I don't disagree with you, but.... I think the OP's estimate of $6,000 to get a $1,000 airplane flying is WAY optimistic. In all likelihood, after the airplane is restored, just the first annual inspection will probably run about half that.

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Totally agree - but the $6000 wasn't just an estimate pulled out of thin air, it's based on a very specific and lucky anecdote: http://www.thisoldcherokee.com/

YMMV, but we can all dream...

Everyone needs a hobby and hobbies only need to be enjoyable. Once you put a price on it, it no longer becomes a hobby or passion, as so many of us describe ourselves. Remember money doesn't spend itself.

Slightly off the subject but I'm always amazed at folks who will buy a fine piece of machinery (airplane) and then tie it down outside and let the weather and sun beat it to death. Often they apparently lose interest in the subject and it sits on the ramp or in the weeds for years and never touched. I can think of several right now. My father in law who was a good farmer never left his machinery outside. Once it was done for the season it was cleaned up and put away under shelter. I was just looking at a Cessna 150 yesterday that I don't believe has been moved for 10 years.

Your father-in-law likely had a lot of land on which to build his own hangar. For the majority of people, we are relegated to storing a plane at the airstrip, where we can either pay $75/month for a tiedown space, or $350/month for hangar space. And looking around, that seems to be a minimum around the Memphis metro area. I mean... that's a freaking car payment. If I could build my own hangar, I bet the monthlies on that would be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

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Originally Posted by geosnooker2000

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

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For a certified aircraft the minimum equipment list on the type certificate outlines what the aircraft needs to be airworthy.

So that would be Part 91. There is no MEL for a PA28-140.

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Originally Posted by geosnooker2000

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

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14CFR 91.205 would give you the minimum list of instruments required for VFR and IFR, day and night. In MY opinion, if you're facing replacement of ALL the gauges, you might as well look into an EFIS.

Basic Comm radio, such as the Icom ICA220. Transponder, encoder, and ADS-B, depending on where you plan to fly.

Resurrecting the engine is likely to cost as least as much as the panel, depending on how long it's been sitting, how it was prepared, and the environment it sat in.

Ron Wanttaja

The Equipment List is issued by Piper with the original Weight and Balance form and should be transferred with the aircraft papers. http://twisted-wrench.com/files/W_an...pment_List.pdf

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

The Equipment List is issued by Piper with the original Weight and Balance form and should be transferred with the aircraft papers. http://twisted-wrench.com/files/W_an...pment_List.pdf

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I suspect this airplane's log books will not be coming with the plane, whoever buys it, IF anyone buys it. Because, the plane will be a "foreclosure" of sorts, taken by the airport for years and years of ramp fees not paid. The owner of the aircraft is (as far as I can determine) Barron Thomas LLC, who won't answer the phone, won't return phone calls, and won't return emails. If you know the story behind him, you can probably guess why. I wish he would, I would love to get as much info on the plane as I could get.

Sorry Bill, Someone is confusing the Equipment List for W& B purposes vs the Minimum Equipment List that describes minimum equipment functionality required for flight. MELs are required for turbine powered aircraft and Part 125 and 135 operations.

As a jumping off point/issue (although I have already asked for opinions about the avionics), this plane has no spinner. I went and googled "piper 140 used spinner for sale". The cheapest I came up with was $495 from Texas Salvage, and it has TWO messed up screw holes??? I thought surely one could come by a spinner for a reasonable price out there. Am I looking in the wrong places?

As an non-plane owner but a lifetime (71 yrs and counting) aviation enthusiast, the four words I don't recall seeing together very often are "aviation parts" and "reasonable price". -lol

Here is the panel. Since I am a newbie, I don't recognize some of that stuff. Like, what is that thing above the transponder that says "comm" and "omni"? IS that a piece of equipment for IFR? I've looked at a lot of Piper 140s for sale online, and I've never seen anything like that.
Attachment 8296

The thing that is marked COMM and OMNI is an ancient NAV COMM with a built-in indicator. COMM for communications receiver and OMNI was another name for VOR (remember VOR stands for VHF Omnidirectional Range). Alas, that radio is garbage. First, it is almost certainly illegal to transmit with under the current rules. There's a separate VOR head there so I suspect there's a second NAV radio of some vintage obscured by the control yoke. The bottom unit is an old Mode A/C transponder. Of course, given the age of the other radios, it may lack a mode C encoder. None of this archaic junk has any retail value and probably isn't even worth repairing if you wanted to keep it.

I'm not sure what the stuff with the falling off trim just above the quadrant is. The rest of the panel is ugly but doesn't look too bad.

Unlike the $1000 Cherokee you referenced, this one looks rough. Looks like someone started ripping it apart and there's probably good reason as there's visible corrosion (and more likely that's not visible). A lot of the viability will come down to what shape the engine is. Just throwing a bunch of mouse milk at it may not bring it back to life.

That is a very very old Nav/Com radio unit, obsolete. It will need replaced as well as (probably) the nav head.

It appears to be an old King KX-150 comm nav radio. It’s a man cave museum piece. To the left there is an VOR OBS head and an ADF head but the radios have been removed. You need to hook up with some airplane knowledgeable people and take a REALISTIC look at this airplane. Based on your own newbie comment I would STRONGLY recommend that you walk away!

I know that the low entry cost is tempting but you’re probably gonna have to strip this airplane completely down and no telling what you may find but it ain’t gonna be cheap and you might find the airframe is just not cost effective to rebuild. Then what???

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

That's because the cost and hassle of General Aviation has exceeded the value.

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That just about sums it all up.
It's mostly beyond reach for most pilot wannabees.

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I would STRONGLY recommend that you walk away! "

More like run away or jump into a fast car and drive away. lol