Can someone translate VMC into real words having to do with training and proficiency?
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Can someone translate VMC into real words having to do with training and proficiency?
Per a quick 'Googling':
In aviation, visual meteorological conditions (or VMC) is an aviation flight category in which visual flight rules (VFR) flight is permitted—that is, conditions in which pilots have sufficient visibility to fly the aircraft maintaining visual separation from terrain and other aircraft.
I don't know how the term directly relates to training and proficiency, but in truth I DID have to look it up - lol
The real question is would you fly in VMC without an autopilot???
Now that's funnyQuote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
As far as the FAA is concerned VMC means conditions LEGAL to fly VFR. IMC is the opposite, conditions not legal to fly VFR in.
Note that you can be in VMC and still need to have to rely on instruments (moonless nights, haze over featureless horizon). You can fly in IMC and still be flying without relying on instruments. The FAA has held that if you have to rely solely on instruments (even if technically in VMC), then you are in actual instrument conditions and may log it for such requirements (your initial instrument rating and for currency once rated).
Finally! A forum where I can feel at home. I have an Instrument ticket but always considered myself a marginal VMC Pilot. You can decide for yourselves which word is modified by the adjective.
My translation of VMC: regardless of the legal definition (per Ron's post), you have to be able to see far enough ahead to avoid obstructions, and well enough (or clearly enough) that you can use what you see as an attitude indicator. If the distance ahead isn't enough that you can avoid obstructions before you get to them, or if you must resort to instruments to stay upright, then that's not VMC.
Here's a really good example of what is not VMC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2MVDY8o7Bs Be sure to watch to the end, to see how close they really were.
Cary
Hah! Does that mean that a non instrument rated pilot flying solo can log instrument time?Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
Interesting that everyone else interpreted this as "Visual Meteorological Conditions", and the first thing that entered my head was "Vmc", as in Minimum Control Speed, specifically for multi-engine aircraft. Go figure. One assumes everyone else was right :-).Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
That would technically be called Vmca. We are sticklers here for exactness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin
I notice they made sure not to show a complete N-number there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary
Well, exactly per CFR 14 Part 23.149, they call it Vmc :-). No "a", although some folks do use the "a" for airborne, and a "g" for ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
The international organization (ICAO) recognizes Vmca as the official acronym and yes "a" whilst airborne.
Absolutely. Same as an instrument rated pilot not on an IFR clearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana
Actually Marc 23.149(f) talks about VMCG (they put it all in caps in the rule)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin
Now if you really like letters here is a quote from AC 25-7B which is the guide to certifying your Part 25 aircraft.
23. Minimum Control Speed - § 25.149
a. Explanation
Section 25.149 defines requirements for minimum control speeds duringtakeoff climb (VMC), during takeoff ground roll (VMCG), and during approach and landing (VMCLand VMCL-2). The VMC (commonly referred to as VMCA) requirements are specified in§ 25.149(a), (b), (c) and (d); the VMCG requirements are described in § 25.149(e); and the VMCLand VMCL-2 requirements are covered in § 25.149(f), (g) and (h). Section 25.149(a) states that“...the method used to simulate critical engine failure must represent the most critical mode ofpowerplant failure with respect to controllability expected in service.” That is, the thrust lossfrom the inoperative engine must be at the rate that would occur if an engine suddenly becameinoperative in service.
But you are correct that there is no official Vmca definition for the US FAA.
VMC as having to do with training and proficiency = two or more people engaged in hangar flying discussion, in order to learn and gain insight in all aspects of flying. A good pilot is all ways learning.
Sure. It does not mean you are qualified, but you still had the experience. I have 3.5 hours multi-engine time at night from 40 years ago while riding with my flight instructor from Virginia to Kansas (to visit Jim Bede!) It still counts as dual night multi time for this light sport pilot!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana
Uh, I think you guys have the wrong VMC! This forum is a takeoff of the IMC, Instrument Meteorological Conditions club that became part of the EAA. They are now starting Visual Meteorological Conditions clubs as part of EAA chapters, where they take a flight safety challenge and slowly explore it in a group setting. "What would you do in these conditions with this information?" kind of setting. I sat through one such scenario at a Chapter Leaders Training session at Oshkosh last September. It was a blast to tear into the scenarios, given only a part at a time, with suggestions, only to be followed with more of the unfolding scenario so we could do it again. Lot of fun, and some good sharing and learning about flying from that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hann
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
Someone at EAA needs to explain here what a VMC club is!!!
It as to go higher than that! We need someone at the FAA to explain why they used the same acronym for two different topics!! Much confusion!Quote:
Originally Posted by gcvisel
I just sat through an EAA webinar on VMC Clubs tonight. See https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-chapt...ogram-vmc-club for a description of the program. The webinar itself was recorded, and a link to it will be available shortly, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
The basic approach they are using in a VMC Club is to use an A-V presentation of a scenario, stop it half way through, and then start asking a room full of members what they would do in this situation. It draws on the actual real-life experiences of the people, vs. the "book learning" they have long since forgotten. The hypothesis is that there is no one "right" answer, but that we all bring something to the table, whether we have 20 hours flight time or 20,000 hours. We all have experiences.
Any EAA chapter can start a VMC Club and get access to the scenarios.
Oh, so it's like an AA meeting? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by gcvisel
Actually, I'd be interested in doing a scenario based event as a facilitator but my local EAA chapter is on life support. Probably can't support a VMC club.
Perhaps start a VMC Club group would be the start of getting your local chapter off of "life support". Here is how I figure it: I hear a lot of people talking about how their local chapter is dying, but not many are taking any action to change it. Although our chapter is just starting, we are also starting a VMC Club group. EAA would like new IMC or VMC Clubs to have at least 5 participants and an instructor to clarify difficult questions. For our VMC Club, we were given the ok to start it without a CFI as long as we had a participant with at least 1,000 hours. If you can scrape together at least 5 folks who are willing to give it a try and any one of them has close to 1,000 hours, I say give it a go. It could very well be the thing that starts generating interest again in your chapter.
Don't forget that if you are not in VMC (less then 1000 ft from the clouds for example) then you are in IMC so you need an IFR rating to be legal!
If any VMC club needs CFI support I would be willing to help long distance via phone or text. Email to CFIG1467368@yahoo.com if you would like additional information or contact JEDI on homebuiltairplanes.com
I am looking for those interested in LOC (Loss of Control) stall spin discussions.
The VMC Club is a spinoff of the IMC Club, which Radek Wyrzkowski started (apart from the EAA) after he got his instrument ticket and the very next day, flew into some IMC conditions on a cross-country, which he is very lucky to still be able to talk about. Shortly thereafter, he and a small group of instrument rated pilots started the IMC Club to share their experiences so others did not have to learn them the hard way. People heard about it and clamored for a VFR version, so he started the VMC Clubs. It was just a few years ago that it got absorbed and sponsored by the EAA.
Radek gives the history and some details in an EAA webinar saved at:
https://www.eaa.org/Videos/Webinars/5404627100001
YES!!! That sure worked for us! We started using the VMC Club videos during our chapter meeting, and it really livened up the meetings and gave us something to focus on. We have since split it off into a separate meeting since we got some new officers, one of whom now arranges for an interesting speaker or theme of each meeting. We now do the VMC Club videos at two regular meetings a year to show everybody else what they are missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbdevkc
The two discussions here are not unrelated. The VMC club is supposed to discuss issues that primarily affect flying by VFR pilots (pilots flying under VFR, regardless of their ratings.) Now, the question of VMC is highly relevant. VMC and VFR are two different things. The weather can be VMC, but to be legal VFR you have to maintain separation and visibility. We had a YE rally a few months ago where we had to have that discussion among the pilots. Just because it was "scattered" did not mean the pilot could remain VFR. I recommended waiting an hour while the ceilings rose and broke up. One pilot did not quite understand that distinction, and wound up terminating the flight minutes after leaving the pattern, so the plane and passengers could remain legal VFR!
It may be too fine a point, but if the clouds are scattered then it is vfr, scattered clouds don't constitute a ceiling. No matter how high or low the bases of the clouds are, it they are only scattered, its not a ceiling for imc purposes, its vmc and to be ifr or imc it has to be broken clouds at least.
Of course, especially if flying kids you don't want to take any chances on any kind of chance with weather. Id guess it might be officerly reported as scattered, but a little more clouds in one area.
So broken clouds, bases at 900 ft agl is an ifr ceiling since its below 1000, while scattered clouds at 500 ft are not a ceiling and not ifr. You can see through or around scattered clouds.
You could have fog or smoke from a fire as a visual limit, but it wouldn't be scattered clouds.
By the way if a pilot is dealing with low clouds, trying to fly under them and remain vmc, hopefully not with kids, here are two points, first there is a min elevation figure on the sectionals ( remember what a sectional is?) and it means the how low you can fly, plus 200 ft and clear every object in that box. So if its 1300 ft and you can hold 1500 you aren't going to hit a building or tower.
Next there is the visibility part, need 3 miles to be vmc,but that's pretty slim. And it depends what you are flying, it may be ok in a 50 mph J3 Cub but nerve racking in a 200 mph P-51., and harder to navigate visually.
Note there is not really any "ceiling" limit for VFR other than operating below it in a [airspace formerly known as control zone]. Outside a surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport, you're free to fly no matter what the ceiling is. You're only required to maintain the regulatory cloud clearance and visibility.