Flying across the border with Light Sport

I was wondering if anyone has any information on the issue of guys flying under Light Sport across the Canadian border. Lots of guys I know up here in Northern MN have gone SP and most of these guys have places they visit in Canada. Right now our glorious border laws won't allow people to fly across the border without a valid medical certificate. The guys I know are/were PP licensed and previously crossed the border all the time before the new eAPIS system. Once their medical certificate expired they can no longer leagally get back across the border which I think is a bunch of 'horse pucky'!!
Is there anything being done to alliviate this issue?
On a side note I know that the amount of border crossings via GA has greatly decreased by the guys I know that used to go to Canada for a weekend of fishing or just plain sight seeing.
Unfortuantely I am one of these guys. I let my medical expire and am now flying under SP. I had always dreamed of flying up there to visit several friends and now the only way I can do so is by driving. Both my Champ and RANS S-7 have floats and I would love to be able to fly up for a weekend and visit my buddies lake cabins.
Keith

Keith,

Your post got me thinking, so I went & did a search in the e-APIS & CBP documents to find out where it says a medical is required as it surprised me.

Found it here - on page 23, but it won't let me copy. It does seem an odd requirement.

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/...yers_guide.pdf

Have you tried contacting the "Private Aircraft Support" section of the CBP directly to ask why a medical is still required? Their email is Private.AIRCRAFT.SUPPORT@dhs.gov

Good luck!

I suspect it is because a current PPL is required for international flights. If one doesn't have an active medical, then one doesn't have an active PPL. Within the USA the PPL holder without a current medical is allowed to fly under Sport Pilot rules only - but that's only domestically, since international flights are covered by the ICAO.

Sport Pilots (and those flying under SPL rules) don't meet ICAO requirements. Only one country (the Bahamas) has a bilateral agreement to recognize the SPL with the USA. It's something I was well aware of when I got my SPL - and didn't care about, since I don't anticipate flying to other nations.

Frank,

Yes, you are stating what I already know and that is why I posed the question. Most of the guys I have spoken with, that cross regularly, say they have never been checked for their medical. But these guys are, and have been, regular customers at the crossing sites so I am assuming the agents don't bother checking since they 'know'these people. There are also those guys that have been checked. I am not the type that will 'take a chance' since homeland security laws are nothing to mess with. Those guys are militant!!!
Up here in the north country there are getting to be more and more 'retired' guys that have gone to LSA and they are the ones that have cabin's or go up there for fishing and vacation.

We had a fly-in at Moberg's Airbase/Seaplane base this past weekend and the topic of crossing the border came up with quite a few of the guys I spoke to. Many of these guys said that the need for getting to their cabins in Canada was the main reason of owning a plane. Several of these same guys also stated that their visits have been drastically cut back due to this situation and say they no longer see a reason to have their planes and are planning on selling as the rules, regulations, and hassle of crossing have taken all the fun out of it.


I remember reading an article several months ago about discussions to allow SP licensee's to cross and was hoping someone on here had more inofrmation.

I have flown into Canada many times in the past. I had to miss this year’s 70 Knotter trip because the group went to Canada. As I now only fly a J-3, I have decided to fly under the sport pilot rules. So, it is now illegal for me to fly in Canada.

Last year, the Canadian representatives at AIrVenture heard my opinion on this situation. I didn’t see them this year. I would hope that Canada will someday recognize the sport pilot rating.

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Up here in the north country there are getting to be more and more 'retired' guys that have gone to LSA and they are the ones that have cabin's or go up there for fishing and vacation.

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Everything has it's tradeoffs I guess.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the countries that don't allow American experimental category aircraft (non-LSA, like normal category but amateur built) to operate without a special authorization?

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Originally Posted by Rick Rademacher

I would hope that Canada will someday recognize the sport pilot rating.

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Us Canadians are also hoping that Sport Pilot License will be recognized here as well. Many here would like the ability to use a driver's license as proof of medical fitness. Many of us have friends in the US that are flying under SP and would like for them to come up for a visit.

As I understand it, the problem is that Transport Canada is maintaining the IACO requirement of each license or permit must have a valid medical to fly in Canadian airspace. Our own ultralight permit requires a medical, even if it is a self declared medical. I have heard that Transport Canada is unlikely to relax their position on this.

Regards,
Joe
Lethbridge, Alberta

Hunter, Beaver above holds the key to the "when."

When Canada adopts the twin of the Sport Pilot license, a bilateral agreement would be quickly agreed on.

I suspect that on the Canadian side they don't want to admit Sport Pilots (and those flying under Sport Pilot rules) as that would be an admission that it is a viable option for pilots - effectively establishing domestic policy by the means of international diplomacy.

Plus this would be an issue ripe for petty political advantage, particularly in elections where there is little to differentiate parties or candidates. "So-and-so stands for loosening aviation safety to the danger of the regular citizen who can scarce afford the luxury and expense of owning an aircraft, many of which cost well over a million dollars. Vote for us and we won't abandon the duty of the government to keep you, and our Candian skies, safe."

I'm being cynical, of course.

It would be interesting to know how the bilateral agreement with the Bahamas was achieved.

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Originally Posted by Beaver550

As I understand it, the problem is that Transport Canada is maintaining the IACO requirement of each license or permit must have a valid medical to fly in Canadian airspace. Our own ultralight permit requires a medical, even if it is a self declared medical.

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Looked at that way, a US SP requires a self declared medical (as well as a state issued drivers license).

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Originally Posted by Frank Giger

It would be interesting to know how the bilateral agreement with the Bahamas was achieved.

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I suspect that can be summed up in two words: "tourism dollars."

-Dana

The lion and the lamb may lie down together, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the countries that don't allow American experimental category aircraft (non-LSA, like normal category but amateur built) to operate without a special authorization?

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It's probably easier to list the countries that do allow US experimentals to operate without special authorization. Other than a few of the US's immediate neighbours, it will be neccesary to apply to the national authority on each occasion. In most cases it will be granted, but usually as day/VFR and private flying only and may require specific insurance to be in place.

I suspect that the limited number of experimentals venturing further than Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas will mean there's little pressure to obtain standing agreements with other countries.

Ah. Europe would be relatively (key word there) easier because of the unified airspace and standards in place for the most part. Given the expected range for my design, it would not be hard to go trans-Atlantic (with the normal GA stops) and if I have the means and availability to do so, then I plan to do so. It's not like I'm going to be puttering around with non-certified avionics or anything short of a turboprop engine so I don't see any reason why I won't be able to do so.

Where it might be an issue is if I get a wild hare up my butt and decide to go beyond Europe to explore. That could be an administrative challenge.

So I can't legally fly a LS from one state to another as in the case of Washington State or Montana to Alaska because another country stands in my way. BULL!!!!!!!!!!! Politics is crazy and Politicians need to remember who they work for.

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Originally Posted by Richard Warner

BULL!!!!!!!!!!! Politics is crazy and Politicians need to remember who they work for.

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Last time I checked, the Canadian politicians don't work for us. ;)

Canada has had a version of Light Sport Pilot before the USA. It is called a Recreatioal Pilot Permit, not to be confused with the USA Recreational Permit (license).
In Canada a PPL pilot can drop down to a Rec Permit and still fly anywhere in Canada with one passenger in an uncomplicated aircraft like a Cessna 150 or 172
using a self declared medical (endorsed by a family physician), day time only.
It allows use of a larger A/C and other minor differences than the LSA and because it is not recognised by the FAA Canadians who have been flying in Canada for many years with a Rec Permit are not allowed to fly in the US.
Because these 2 documents, LSA and Rec Permit, basically allow identical flying privileges in each of our countries, we should be pressuring our respective
politicians (and FAA, Transport Canada) to allow reciprical privileges across our border. And don't kid yourselves it won't happen without pressure.

A person who has a Canadian Recreational Pilot Permit in addition to their US Light Sport Pilot license is qualified to fly in both countries. Would they not also be allowed to fly back and forth? One can fly an ultralight aircraft across the border easily enough. I believe US LSA can be operated in Canada as long as they have an individually issued Special Flight Authorization (contact a Transport Canada Centre for an individual validation of the aircraft's flight authority). Again, the only other requirement to fly an LSA in Canada is a Private Pilot Certificate which is your RPP (in Canada, it's not called a license). Just throwing that out there to see if this is a viable option.

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Originally Posted by Dana

I suspect that can be summed up in two words: "tourism dollars."

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And from the situations being described by the originator of this thread, I'd expect that same reason (Americans choosing not to visit cabins in Canada, not buy gas for their airplanes there, and generally not spending any of the money people will spend on vacations) will eventually become big enough for Canada to take action. Or not. The Bahamas are much more tourist-driven.

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Originally Posted by Eric Witherspoon

And from the situations being described by the originator of this thread, I'd expect that same reason (Americans choosing not to visit cabins in Canada, not buy gas for their airplanes there, and generally not spending any of the money people will spend on vacations) will eventually become big enough for Canada to take action. Or not.

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I'm saying NOT. The number of non-medical SP's or those flying LS aircraft under SPL rules wanting to fly into Canada is so minute as to not even register on the lost tourism dollars scale. So that's not an economic factor that's going to influence any possible rule change.

It's certainly not incumbent upon Transport Canada to change any rules to a category of licensing that doesn't exist in the country in the first place. As well, The LSA does not exist as a category of aircraft. It's therefore also difficult to import and register any LSA in Canada and manufacturers are losing a good sized market as a result(as of the latest 2008 figures, there are 70,854 Canadian pilot licences and permits held making Canada the 2nd largest population of pilots in the world). However, I and some others have found an obscure licensing reg that could bring one in and a Transport Canada official has confirmed this could work. Furthermore, Transport Canada has let it be known that considering LSA is not even on the horizon as they believe that the RPP and Advanced Ultralight licence already covers most of what LSA sport pilot is all about.

If non-medicaled U.S. LS pilots want to foster a Canadian rule change re medicals then it is incumbent upon you to bring it to the attention of EAA, AOPA or your appropriate elected officials to lobby the FAA to get a bilateral agreement/exemption with Transport Canada.

I also suspect there is another major issue that is likely just as much a barrier to both US non-medical and medicaled pilots wanting to fly to Canada. US citizens require a Passport to fly TO Canada. YOU DON'T NEED A PASSPORT TO ENTER CANADA BUT YOU SURE AS HELL NEED ONE TO FLY BACK INTO THE U.S. You can thank Bush Jr. and Homeland Security for that!(BTW, did you know that Bush Jr. had never possessed a passport when he became president, but I digress). In fact, almost 75% of US citizens do not have a passport(they don't travel outside of their own counties, let alone the country) because they think its a hassle to get one but it isn't. Historically, Canadians are big travellers so having a passport is of second nature.

I'd like to run a straw poll here. How many of you currently have a valid U.S.Passport??

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How many of you currently have a valid U.S.Passport??

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Count me as a 'yes'.

My diplomatic passport ran out sometme in 71 or 72. Never bothered to get another one.

Ok guys, this thread took a turn somewhere along the line and developed into a discussion about Canada's laws. It is NOT Canada that is the problem it is our good ol US of A!!! I could get into Canada easily...it is returning home wherein the problem lies. HS will not allow me to come back into the country (that I originated from) without a medical. Let me restate this...It is OUR government and its rediculous laws that would prevent me from flying to Canada and back.
Oh, I have a passport. ;)

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Originally Posted by WWhunter

HS will not allow me to come back into the country (that I originated from) without a medical. Let me restate this...It is OUR government and its rediculous laws that would prevent me from flying to Canada and back.
Oh, I have a passport. ;)

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You can fly to/from the Bahamas without a medical in an LSA. Is returning from Canada different?

Passport - yes, since at least 1975.

Reckful,What are the exact requirements for a Canadian RPP ? If they don't include a medical or Canadian citizenship, your supposition that having each would solve this problem for Sport Pilot Licesees and PPL's flying under the Sport Pilot rules may be true. Obviously, one would have to arrange to get an RPP but, if it had a lifetime usefulness like a PPL, the effort might be worthwhile.

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HS will not allow me to come back into the country (that I originated from) without a medical. Let me restate this...It is OUR government and its rediculous laws that would prevent me from flying to Canada and back

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The US is one of only a couple of countries that allow folks to fly what might be considered "real" airplanes without a medical. The ICAO standards are the issue here and most countries- including Canada- abide by them. Also, your argument falls apart given the ability to fly to and from the Bahamas without a medical as someone else pointed out. If you had to have a medical to get back in, then why is that allowed?

Wiithin the EAA, there must be a Vice President responsible for investigating items like this which are of significant interest to the membership. Has the organization ever made an effort to present these concerns to the Canadian government ? Or, if that is considered unacceptable (an interest group attempting to initiate dialog with a foreign country), an effort to get our government to do so through the (e.g.) FAA or DOT ? If not, why not? Could one of the moderaters get this request in front of the right action person ?

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

The US is one of only a couple of countries that allow folks to fly what might be considered "real" airplanes without a medical. The ICAO standards are the issue here and most countries- including Canada- abide by them. Also, your argument falls apart given the ability to fly to and from the Bahamas without a medical as someone else pointed out. If you had to have a medical to get back in, then why is that allowed?

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I really don't think my argument is falling apart as you state. I just don't have an answer. I have search until I have no more ideas on where to search or how to find the answer. At the same time, I agree that is makes no sense to be able to fly to the Bahama's and then able to return but not Canada....makes no sense what so ever. In looking at the rules for the Bahamas it is confusing, as it state Light sport is legal yet some of the requirements state a medical IS required. It'll take further reading til I get it figured out.
Light-Sport Aircraft

http://www.bahamas.com/sites/bahamas...ton_fly_in.jpgThe Islands of The Bahamas will accept the certification of a US / Canada sport flying pilot, the only exception is pilot MUST HAVE A Drivers License or a Third Class Medical.












Then further down under Sport pilot rules:


The Sport Pilot Rule

A sport pilot may exercise flight privileges in one or more of the following aircraft categories:

• Airplane (single-engine only)
• Glider
• Lighter-than-air (airship or balloon)
• Rotorcraft (gyroplane only)
• Powered Parachute
• Weight-Shift control aircraft(e.g. Trikes)
• Creates a new student sport pilot certificate
• Creates a new sport pilot flight instructor certificate.
• Requires FAA knowledge (written) and practical (flight) test.
• Credits ultra light training and experience toward a sport pilot certificate providing the ultra light pilot transitions to a sport pilot certificate by 31 January 2007.
• Credits sport pilot flight time toward more advanced pilot ratings.
• Requires either a 3rd class FAA medical certificate or TC 3rd class medical certificate.
• Does not allow carrying passengers for compensation or hire
• Does not allow flights in furtherance of business
• Allows sharing (“pro-rata”) operating expenses with another pilot.
• Allows daytime flight only.
• Allow sport pilots to fly vintage and production aircraft (standard airworthiness certificate) that meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft.

As you can see it can get confusing.

WWhunter,I have looked at the requirements for flying to & from the Bahamas recently and believe that you may have referenced some data which has been superseded. As indicated by others in this thread, I feel that flying to the Bahamas under Sport Pilot rules is legal and practiced. While I have not done so personally, I think this is a non- issue. The Canadian situation remains and is probably a function of different application of ICAO regulations in each country. With our long common border and good relations with our Northern neighbor, this is certainly a meaningful area of concern. And the EAA should have an active role in promoting the ability of Sports Pilots &/or PPL's operating under SP (or similar) rules in Canada. While a U.S. citizen who owns a recreational cabin there and has simply flown into Canada at will in the past, may have strong feelings about this, today is today and it is not that we simply have to accept every limitation that "today" brings. I thank you for bringing this important topic to the forum and encourage your continued participation in it's favorable resolution. I can't help noticing the deafening quiet coming from our organization on this issue. Along the same lines, has any single disenfranchised Pilot actually contacted the Canadians (by letter not telephone) to ask this question? The 3rd class medical may be clearly stated in ICAO regs but these were written long before there was such a thing as a Sport Pilot Catagory. Similarly, we must have many Canadiens amongst our membership. I've seen one or two comments in this thread from them. How about you ? Do you have a position on this matter. Does your RPP pose problems like this for you ?

To: All following this thread/WWhunter/steveindy Found a couple of interesting things while poking around the net-- The AOPA site has a seemingly comprehensive list of information about the whole process of flying to Canada (and probably other countries) under the general topic heading of "International Flying". This includes Sport Pilot Licenses, use of LSA aircraft and even experimental aircraft (that should take care of your 200 kt+ development machine! Steve). Please note that I didn't say it was simple or easy but the information is there if you are willing to dig it out. I did not read much on the experimental catagory since it doesn't impact me but, it does appear that most types of licenses etc. are covered and that those who formerly flew to Canada and have backed off to Sport Pilot can "follow the yellow brick road" and make arrangements if they wish. Whether or not it is to ones liking, the requirement for a U.S. passport to renter the U.S. is probably still there and IMHO not likely to change real soon.********Interestingly enough, I was approached about a fly-in fishing trip recently by a person who had done this 10-15 years ago without any stops or entry or return procedures from Pa. & return. I explained that I was certain there would be some of this and the response was "Well, we didn't have to do that back then". My point is that there are lots of things that don't work the way they did in the "good ole days". However, with a little prepation some of those benefits are still possible.

These issues are addressed on the AOPA site under the topical heading "International Flying". Even experimental aircraft Steveindy.

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Even experimental aircraft Steveindy.

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I appreciate the help. I had already checked out the information previously, but nonetheless I still appreciate it. The only issue I was aware of was with the sport pilot license.

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However, with a little prepation some of those benefits are still possible.

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The general rule I operate by is that with sufficient patience, butt-kissing and paperwork you can get an exemption to just about anything. I have been half-joking about trying to convince the FAA to give me a weight exemption for zero/zero ejection seats in my LSA (since it's "related to safety" ala the BRS but has much more utility at low altitude and speed).

It was not LSA or Sport Pilot, but a few years ago I was invited to go to Canada to do some flying there. The owner/manger of the private airport ask me to bring a copy of my U S license and data, nothing extensive or onerous, and they sent it on to Transport Canada and in just a day or so they sent me a Canadian license which I think may have been for a month or 6 months, can't recall for sure.

A couple of little quirks, if I had flown my own U S registered plane into Canada I could have done it soley in my U S pilot's license. However, since I was flying a Canadian registered plane, I had to get the temporary Canadian license.
And, that license stated that it was only good for me flying that particular plane, not any other even if it was the same model. Seems a bit strange, but it worked and we had a good time.

Several of us flew from Niagara down to a show at Willow Run, Michigan. It was no real trouble, weather was good. Only one catch was that some of the port of entry airports had an office open on Fri when we went out of the country, but closed on Sun when we came back in.

It is a pretty place to fly in the summer over all the green fields.

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It is a pretty plane to fly in the summer over all the green fields.

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What plane was this in? Are you the Bill Greenwood with the Spit?