Visiting Non US citizens flying 103 in the USA

I have for a few years thought of planning a trip to the USA and flying FAR103 ultralights preferably a Lazair as i own one here in Australia. I asked the EAA and they say no problem same with the FAA, i spoke to them at last years Airventure.
Now i have a person here in OZ that insists i should get the same Homeland Security clearance that a GA pilot or student or LSA pilot requires before they can undertake any flight or instruction. I believe that all i require is the usual security check (ESTA) that is to be obtained before arriving in the USA.
Who would i need to ask? Could someone please point me in the right direction. The Homeland Security web site is a bit vague for an inquiry of this type.
I'm really itching to fly Dale's E Lazair next year

Thanks in advance
Ozzie

I would get in touch with the Flight Standards District Office for Wisconsin (which would be the one in Milwaukee). They would be able to give you the FAA's take on it and refer you to any other agencies you might need to deal with. Most FSDO employees are nice and helpful (as a lot of them are pilots themselves, at least in my experience) so that would be the first place I would turn to.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/mke/contact/

I hope this helps.

How about contacting these folks & asking them?

Quote:

---

Contact

For more information, please contact the Private Sector Office at private.sector@dhs.gov or call (202) 282-8484.

---

http://www.dhs.gov/xutil/department_white_pages.shtm

Or is there a FAR 103 flight school who may be able to answer your question?

Even if they can't answer your question, perhaps they could point you in the right direction?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Now i have a person here in OZ that insists i should get the same Homeland Security clearance that a GA pilot or student or LSA pilot requires before they can undertake any flight or instruction. I believe that all i require is the usual security check (ESTA) that is to be obtained before arriving in the USA.
Who would i need to ask? Could someone please point me in the right direction.

---

Simply read the rules. There is absolutely nothing in Part 103 that requires the 'occupant' of an ultralight to be a US citizen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martymayes

Simply read the rules. There is absolutely nothing in Part 103 that requires the 'occupant' of an ultralight to be a US citizen.

---

Absolutely true as i said in my first post that has been confirmed
The potential problem could be with HOMELAND SECURITY not the FAA.
I need to know what view HS has on FAR103. it is not just a case of asking someone in homeland security via a general email inquiry i need to speak to THE person in HS that knows the correct answer and give me an official OK that i do not need to go through the usual route that a visiting GA pilot has to do. Part of this exercise is to prove to the bunnies here at home that FAR103 "ROCKS" in the way that i can just roll up and go fly the same aircraft i fly here without requiring any authorities OK or pay anyone a pocket full of cash.
103 type of aircraft have just about been regulated out of existence here in Australia as the requirements to fly them are just about the same as your LSA types. You need the same type of pilot certificate that cost about 7 grand to get and about 150. a year to keep plus you need to obtain a low inertia endorsement and either a nose wheel or tail wheel endo plus a bi annual flight test, human factors endo. then there is rego for the aircraft. plus more depending on where you operate from.
ozzie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Absolutely true as i said in my first post that has been confirmed
The potential problem could be with HOMELAND SECURITY not the FAA.
I need to know what view HS has on FAR103. it is not just a case of asking someone in homeland security via a general email inquiry i need to speak to THE person in HS that knows the correct answer and give me an official OK that i do not need to go through the usual route that a visiting GA pilot has to do. Part of this exercise is to prove to the bunnies here at home that FAR103 "ROCKS" in the way that i can just roll up and go fly the same aircraft i fly here without requiring any authorities OK or pay anyone a pocket full of cash.
103 type of aircraft have just about been regulated out of existence here in Australia as the requirements to fly them are just about the same as your LSA types. You need the same type of pilot certificate that cost about 7 grand to get and about 150. a year to keep plus you need to obtain a low inertia endorsement and either a nose wheel or tail wheel endo plus a bi annual flight test, human factors endo. then there is rego for the aircraft. plus more depending on where you operate from.
ozzie

---

Be sure, ANY information (approval) you get from anyone from ANY of our government agencies is in writing with a signature!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Absolutely true as i said in my first post that has been confirmed
The potential problem could be with HOMELAND SECURITY not the FAA.
I need to know what view HS has on FAR103.

---

Ozzie, there are no rules, DHS, TSA, FAA that states the occupant of an UL vehicle must be a US citizen. If there were such a rule it would be readily available for public reference. It's not like they are going to keep something like that a secret then hide in the bushes to catch violators.

The DHS/TSA clearance applies to attending flight schools. See Regulation here.

Thank you all who have replied. Looking forward to coming over again next year to enjoy the wonderfull priviliges of FAR103.

The most "logical" way I know of looking at it is to compare airplanes to motorcycles and ultralights to bicycles. Motorcycles have requirements to be registered and their riders licensed, so do airplanes. Bicycles don't have a requirement to be registered or their riders licensed, neither do ultralights. Bicycles aren't "junior" motorcycles, they are totally different beasts. Ultralights aren't "junior" airplanes, they are totally different beasts. Coming to the US and flying an ultralight is no different than coming to the US and riding a bicycle.

All of the above seems to be true, but does not answer your questions, that is, who to talk to in TSA to get an official answer in writing. Sorry, I can not answer that directlly. However if you will go to the TSA web site I believe you will find a way to submit the question or get contact information that may or may not work for you from the land of OZ. If you want to persue this and can not get the answer you need, I will be willing to research and make calls for you, but I am slow and my wife says unreliable. If you do want to apply for clearance, even though it is not requilred, you wil need to do that after you arrive in the states, I think, as you need to present yourself and be fingerprinted, etc. all of which gets expensive and time consumming.

My professional oppinion would be to not get the clearance for two reasons. First because FAR and TSA regulations do not require it, and second, because you are not enrolling in a flight training program. You all ready know how to fly and there is no FAR 103 training authorization.

However, US flight training does require that individuals take and pass a yearly training course on TSA proceedures and safety. This is an online course that takes about an hour to complete and a certificate of completion is available. I would suggest that you bring that certificate with you in order to flog any overzealous TSA officials. In reality if you can make it through the airport security check for the flight over, you should be good to go. Welcome to the good old USA land of the free and home of the brave. Would you like to trade houses for a while?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jedi

However, US flight training does require that individuals take and pass a yearly training course on TSA proceedures and safety. This is an online course that takes about an hour to complete and a certificate of completion is available. I would suggest that you bring that certificate with you in order to flog any overzealous TSA officials. In reality if you can make it through the airport security check for the flight over, you should be good to go. Welcome to the good old USA land of the free and home of the brave. Would you like to trade houses for a while?

---

Jedi, what TSA training are you referring to? There is TSA training required of CFIs. I attend FSI, SimCom, and SimuFlite and there is no TSA training required of their customers.

thanks.

It's all very interesting. Something that could bounce around in the courts for years while one wears orange.
I'll will try and find someone in the TSA and see what there interpretation is. Anyway at least while they are trying to work it out it will keep them occupied and out of someones else's hair.
be interesting to see how it fairs.
Cheers
Ozzie
Australia!
Land of the free, Girt by sea, and there is no escape!

I was refering to the CFI and other employee training as you suggested. You will be training yourself and therefore are the instructor as well as the student. The certificate should indicate to any out of place TSA agents that you know more about what you are doing than he might and he would acept your story that the student authorization is not required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jedi

Your post

---

thanks Jedi.

Why ask? Just come and fly. Who cares? It would be different for flying a rented GA aircraft: the rental FBO may ask a few questions ... maybe. Asking questions from any entity or burocrats is looking for trouble. Who would really care if you fly an ultralight? And BTW, TSA rules only apply for schooling and certainly not for ultralights. But don't even ask anybody unless you are looking for and want trouble. Come, fly and keep your mouth shut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by belgianbuzzer

Why ask? Just come and fly. Who cares? It would be different for flying a rented GA aircraft: the rental FBO may ask a few questions ... maybe. Asking questions from any entity or burocrats is looking for trouble. Who would really care if you fly an ultralight? And BTW, TSA rules only apply for schooling and certainly not for ultralights. But don't even ask anybody unless you are looking for and want trouble. Come, fly and keep your mouth shut.

---

I agree 100%. This is the best post I've seen on this subject.
When asking the gooberment questions, you open a can of worms, then get an answer whether it's right or wrong.

That's my opinion also but i have some wombat over here that just won't get off my back about it. I think he is a little annoyed that i can just go over and have a heap of good old fashioned FUN. But it was in the back of my mind. It just all seems to easy. Anyways I work along the lines of that it is sometimes easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.
Thanks again
ozzie

AFTER the ball is over, do not forget to return to this discussion and tell how you DID get on. Then any future pilots can benefit as there will be a written record here.

I am a GA pilot in Oz who has not bothered with a medical for 6 years now, flying RAA (about equivalent to US LSA rules). EAA have told me there is NO provision for me to fly LSA in the States, so last year it was fly into Milwaukee then bus into Osh.

Sure will. It will take some time to plan out but boy wouldn't it be a buzz to fly into Airventure. Real shame the RAAus can't pick their game up and get in line with the US and European regulations. Especially in the weight area. People spend a fortune on some aircraft and they can't fly them at their rated MTOW. I've never been interested in the RAAus pseudo GA, as I've been a dedicated 'grass roots' type since '76. I only joined them under the threat of 2 years jail if i did not belong and register the lazair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jedi

I was refering to the CFI and other employee training as you suggested. You will be training yourself and therefore are the instructor as well as the student. The certificate should indicate to any out of place TSA agents that you know more about what you are doing than he might and he would acept your story that the student authorization is not required.

---

Except there is no training requirement for ultralights - unless one is going to instruct OTHER pilots.

Any ole Joe with cash in his pocket can buy an ultralight, crank it up, and take to the air with it after lunch, even if he was just told they existed at breakfast.

What's causing a huge zzzzttt sound to the wiring of our friends overseas is how absolutely permissive our aviation system is. That which isn't specifically prohibited is allowed....and very little is specifically prohibited. Want to fly cross country and not tell anyone? Go ahead - flight plans are optional. Stick to non-controlled airfields and never talk to anyone in the government at all if that's your wish.

The odds of getting anyone in the government to issue a letter saying there isn't a rule prohibiting something are slim to non-existent. It's like getting Fish and Game to go on record saying it's okay to perform taxidermy on road killed squirrels; they won't do it because there's nothing in the laws or regulations that say one can't.

You'd be better off talking to ultralight groups on your end for clarification, as the average clerk couldn't be bothered. I'd avoid talking to an FDSO - if they give an opinion that doesn't match the regulation it's not binding! While ours down here is really dilligent, I've heard of some that will make an opinion rather than give an informed response.

Citizenship requirements and the subsequent hoops for non-citizens are listed quite clearly in the regulations for aircraft where they apply - and none are listed for ultralights.

Where are all these errant TSA guys we need to worry about? Hell, where are the FAA guys that are alledgely stifling general aviation with irresponsible over-enforcement of the rules? Unless one is attempting to fly an ultralight in D.C. good luck in finding anybody from the government that cares unless someone dies or there's a fire.

The reason there's no stress over ultralights in our post-9/11 world is that some guy with a five gallon gas tank and the potential of carrying literally tens of pounds of explosives at speeds of up to forty miles an hour in light winds has been deemed as not a high priority risk.

The wag who is nay-saying can't be mollified; no letter or proof of correspondence is going to satisfy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frank Giger

Except there is no training requirement for ultralights - unless one is going to instruct OTHER pilots.

Any ole Joe with cash in his pocket can buy an ultralight, crank it up, and take to the air with it after lunch, even if he was just told they existed at breakfast.

What's causing a huge zzzzttt sound to the wiring of our friends overseas is how absolutely permissive our aviation system is. That which isn't specifically prohibited is allowed....and very little is specifically prohibited. Want to fly cross country and not tell anyone? Go ahead - flight plans are optional. Stick to non-controlled airfields and never talk to anyone in the government at all if that's your wish.

The odds of getting anyone in the government to issue a letter saying there isn't a rule prohibiting something are slim to non-existent. It's like getting Fish and Game to go on record saying it's okay to perform taxidermy on road killed squirrels; they won't do it because there's nothing in the laws or regulations that say one can't.

You'd be better off talking to ultralight groups on your end for clarification, as the average clerk couldn't be bothered. I'd avoid talking to an FDSO - if they give an opinion that doesn't match the regulation it's not binding! While ours down here is really dilligent, I've heard of some that will make an opinion rather than give an informed response.

Citizenship requirements and the subsequent hoops for non-citizens are listed quite clearly in the regulations for aircraft where they apply - and none are listed for ultralights.

Where are all these errant TSA guys we need to worry about? Hell, where are the FAA guys that are alledgely stifling general aviation with irresponsible over-enforcement of the rules? Unless one is attempting to fly an ultralight in D.C. good luck in finding anybody from the government that cares unless someone dies or there's a fire.

The reason there's no stress over ultralights in our post-9/11 world is that some guy with a five gallon gas tank and the potential of carrying literally tens of pounds of explosives at speeds of up to forty miles an hour in light winds has been deemed as not a high priority risk.

The wag who is nay-saying can't be mollified; no letter or proof of correspondence is going to satisfy.

---

Great post. I agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by belgianbuzzer

Why ask? Just come and fly. Who cares? It would be different for flying a rented GA aircraft: the rental FBO may ask a few questions ... maybe. Asking questions from any entity or burocrats is looking for trouble. Who would really care if you fly an ultralight? And BTW, TSA rules only apply for schooling and certainly not for ultralights. But don't even ask anybody unless you are looking for and want trouble. Come, fly and keep your mouth shut.

---

Let me clear this up a little. I believe that in the USA a policy exists under the military, generally referred to as: "don't ask, dont tell". That's what is 100% applicable here.

It's not the TSA that worries me it's event's like this that would freak me out.
http://www.murthalawfirm.com/mother-...action-airport

YAIRS Ozzie, but we have those goons at some airports here in OZ too. Give a man a gun and uniform and you have the basis for the Gestapo. SOME of the chaps here in AUSSIE, in our equivalent to their TSA are NEARLY as bad as that poor lady suffered.

I liked the reply in that post that said the goons should be sued personally.

At little Proserpine recently a Motorglider pilot (with the security ASIC dangling 'round his neck) was bailed by a local security goon and when the pilot grinned and kept walking GOON DROPPED INTO "THE CROUCH"! Give a man a . . . . . .

Go fly and have fun at Osh, but I would just play in the circuit there, that would still be an adventure, and BIG ROD wouldn't let anything mar your fun at OSH. If you are looking for someone to lend you a machine, I'll bet this forum would produce some. Yanks are like that I've found, we will miss going this year, so have some fun for us, we had a ball last year.

THANK YOU ALL, THOSE WHO ATTENDED IN 2011, IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AS GREAT IF YOU WEREN'T THERE.

Doug & Lisha BELBIN
www.yippyio.net Check the blog on OSH

I can't make this year, but i had a great time last year and in '08. Next year i plan to spend three months, the max i can stay at one time.
So have nearly a year to work out how to get a Lazair, probably buy and sell back or build one of Dale's new 'E' Lazairs and bring it home, and where to start the trip from.
Maybe others would be interested in joining me. Yes the best people i have ever met are EAAers.

I lived at Airlie Beach for ten years so not surprisedat what happens at Proserpine.

Enough BS how about real answers. TSA web site for FAQ https://www.flightschoolcandidates.g...e=c&section=FQ says:
"Who must participate in the Alien Flight Student Program? Persons seeking flight training must submit a request if they are not citizens or nationals of the U.S. and:

• They wish to receive flight training in the U.S. or its territories, regardless of whether training will lead to an FAA certificate or type rating; and/or
• They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad.

(NOTE-Certain exemptions to AFSP published in 2004 and 2005 are still in effect. To view those exemptions, please see When is a flight student exempt from the TSA security threat assessment? in the Candidate Frequently Asked Questions section.) "
Following the link to the exemptions one finds: "When is a flight student exempt from the TSA security threat assessment?
There are currently six exemptions to the required TSA security threat assessment:”
The sixth unnumbered reason is listed as:
" Ultralight Aircraft - Flight training in the operation of airships, balloons, and gliders are exempted from the TSA security threat assessment. This clarification is available at TSA-2004-19147-0324.pdf” Which I believe says that Ultralight Aircraft are exempt, along with balloons, gliders, etc. However when one tries to follow the link for clarification the link is dead.
The good news is that there is a link given to ask additional questions if the FAQ pages do not cover your specific question.
Now just come on over and fly for the fun of it and do the Aussie thing of “no worries”.
Please note: The FAA does not recognize “Ultralight Aircraft “ but defines “Ultralight Vehicles”. The TSA exempts Ultralight Aircraft, which have no sanctioned training, from TSA training requirements. Since you are not operating an aircraft, just a vehicle, you have no aircraft TSA flight training requirements. Is that clear? I expect this will all change when the next revision becomes effective. Please follow the Federal Register for proposed changes. Your comments are important. (Just kidding)

Finally Jedi thanks, I have been reading this thread for the first time just now and no one had stated that ultra lights here in the USA are not "aircraft". Crash one and you will see not see the FAA or the NTSB get involved, just the local sherriff, maybe! Larry

BOY-O-BOY you guys know how to get an Aussie pilot AND his pilot wife thinking.