I received an email from IAC about a problem with ADSB out and aerobatics. Just spent a few minutes on the IAC website looking for an update and could find nothing on the subject at all.
What gives?
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I received an email from IAC about a problem with ADSB out and aerobatics. Just spent a few minutes on the IAC website looking for an update and could find nothing on the subject at all.
What gives?
Hi Ernie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie
I agree, that information belongs on the IAC web site. We'll fix that oversight shortly and I'll post back here when it's done.
Regards,
DJ Molny, Webmaster
International Aerobatic Club
webmaster@iac.org
DJ Molny brought my attention to this thread and I have provided him a short article a few minutes ago with an update. He can announce when it is up on the IAC website.
Mike Heuer
President, IAC
Hi Ernie.
The info is now up on the web site: https://www.iac.org/news/2016-12-17-ads-b-update
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Regards,
DJ Molny, Webmaster
International Aerobatic Club
webmaster@iac.org
Thanks! I am likely never going beyond Primary, but I have been considering ADS-B since I need to replace my transponder and the Trig solution looks appealing. And a loop is a loop for ADS-B I suspect.
One of our members wrote the following -- in another forum -- and I invite your comments.
Has there been any mention of the "diversity" option (antennas top and bottom) available on some ADS-B transponders and UATs? Just curious; I fly with both a WAAS (GNS-420) and non-WAAS GPS onboard, and I notice that the WAAS takes up to several minutes to lock back on to the satellites after returning to straight and level, which would no doubt obviate any advantage in the "diversity" antenna solution unless the GPS unit is so equipped as well.
My primary airplane is a 1929 Waco ATO. The reason I am looking at the Trig solution is that there is no room for much. The panel depth is about 5" and there is no more room. I have a com radio and a transponder and they are in their own enclosure next to my right knee. An antenna on the bottom would work. A larger transponder, more avionics, not so much. I have to believe the Pitts crowd has a similar problem.
As noted above, the big problem is that the GPS receiver doesn't like it when the airplane is rolled inverted and the antenna can't see satellites.
And all of the aerobatic biplanes are small enough so that they don't have room for a lot of control heads, boxes, or antennas.
So the ATC people will have to live with the Mode C telling them altitude and position.
ADS-B is another example of a government program where it never occurred to the staff writing the specs that some people use airplanes to have fun.
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS
How would they know, without an FAR that mandates fun?Quote:
Originally Posted by WLIU
BJC
Just wondering if there are any updates available on the ADS-B/aerobatics issues. This from the article on the IAC website: "IAC will be represented at an FAA/EAA Summit Meeting in Oshkosh on the 7th-8th of February 2017 and will continue to press this issue. More working group meetings are planned in Washington in March at which IAC will also be represented."
Nothing to report. We did discuss this with FAA again and FAA has promised no enforcement action against ADS-B Out equipped aircraft that perform aerobatics and then show anamolies in the performance reports. As you are no doubt aware, you can get performance reports on the internet now. IAC recommends that after installing the equipment, you make a 30 minute flight or so that is normal -- no aerobatics. Then, download your report and carry it with you in the airplane -- showing your performance is normal.
What we are lacking at this moment is written, hard-copy FAA policy on this. We only have these verbal assurances. I think their promise of no enforcement action is assuring, but as always, we like it in writing. IAC will continue to work on that.
Mike Heuer
President, IAC
Thanks for the update. I find it troubling that the FAA won't put the assurance in writing. I would hate to install ADS-B and then have a new requirement added for aerobatic compliance.
Hate to bring this up again, but is there anything new? I am ready for ADS-B, but not a hassle. Is there just no hope that the FAA puts something in writing?
Ernie,
We find it frustrating as well that there has been no written guidance on this though promised a long time ago. The bureaucracy is certainly not known for speed. That said, we have an EAA/FAA Recreational Aviation Summit coming up in Oshkosh on 13-14 February which I will be attending. That question is on the agenda -- we sent in our list last week.
Mike Heuer
Thanks Mike,
good luck!
Ernie
And another question, does ADSB go back to normal in non-aero flight? Another way to ask that, is the non-compliance only while doing the acro or does it "tumble" $ome $ystem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie
From our conversation with FAA and looking at the printouts, that is what it shows. It goes back to "green" when in normal flight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M
Mike Heuer
Thank you. Seems this is a non-problem in search of an FAA-approved $olution?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Heuer
The “problem” is just the FAA. The system will send you an error report each time it sees a failure. The FAA says it won’t take any action. So far, it hasn’t been willing to put that in writing. Legally you can’t turn the ADSB out system off.
I’ve now got several acro hours in my Extra following ADS-B In/Out installation. No issues yet with FAA. I’ll update this thread if the situation changes.
Mark
Thanks for the information! Could you describe your ADS-B out equipment? I suspect the errors are mostly when th e GPS loses lock, and some systems may have longer delay times than others, that is, they don't unlock as quickly. But I am no expert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRogge
Hi Ernie,
It’s the Stratus/Appario equipment. The antenna is located immediately behind the luggage tray.
mark
What if Feds created a discrete squawk code while doing Acro or other maneuvering that vexes ADS-B...say 1207 or such?I have been contacted by Feds because my low altitude maneuvering also generates a similar error.
if while VFR, you dialed 1207, it would give the Feds a way to “ignore” the NIC/NAC (Patti Waco) (sorry) fluctuations.
The ADS-B and EFB manufacturers could flag the 1207 code to alert you to a manuervering airplane.
ted
There are several possible solutions, but I suspect most if not all would require software changes on the ATC host systems. $$ There are other problems. A friend told me about formation flying if all had ADS-B in and out. They elected to turn three off, but that is against the regs.
Seems like basically the FAA is going to have to get seriously interested in solving problems before anything useful happens.
Has anyone ever been grounded due to this issue with acro flight? I'm not aware of that happening but may just be naïve to the consequences. Letter, sure. Grounding, really?
Ernie's right. And thanks go to Mike H and others at IAC for working to resolve this issue.
Mark
Flying in formation, if multiple airplanes squawk, the ATC computer munges all of the replys into the VFR code of 1200. If an ATC code is requested by the formation lead, all other formation participants must set their transponder to standby.
Unfortunately, the empirical evidence suggests that the FAA staff doing nexgen and ADS-B appear to have limited experience with all of the aviation activities that exist out in the real world. If ADS-B is to be successful, the problems that we know about will have to be solved. We can hope that EAA, IAC, and AOPA will push hard at the FAA to correct the FAA's deficiencies.
Best of luck,
Wes