Really Dumb FAA Move

There is a new procedure that I have noticed here in Aspen, and at Denver Centennial. When a pilot of a small piston engined plane like me in my Bonanza calls for taxi to the runway, the ground controller asks, "Will you need a run up?"

This is really dumb, of course we need and should do a run up, just as we were taught when we learned to fly. Them asking this over and over, every time before taxi is not going to talk me out of what I learned and what I know is right and safe, But there should not be the pressure to rush and short cut the procedure or do the run up before taxi., and especially this advice should not come from an official FAA agency.

I am sure they, of course, would say they are only asking. But it is like if someone asked them every time they got in a car, "Do you really need to wear your seat belt" ? How about do your kids really need to wash their hands before eating or a waiter really need to wash their hands after using the restroom? Does the doctor really need to wear gloves and new ones for each patient? Do they really need to get their paycheck every month?

I have never, not once, heard them ask a pilot of a jet if they will need a run up.

I want to bring this to everyone's attention, especially since some new or student pilot may be tempted to skip or shortcut the run up on the idea that the tower controller must know best. They know best about their own procedures ,but when it comes to flying a plane most controllers are not even pilots.

That is likely a response and accommodation to the ratio of jet and commercial traffic to the recreational traffic. The jet and turboprop guys are usually ready to go when they arrive at the end of the runway and on the ground freq I often hear them read back their clearance and add the phrase "ready reaching". Jets and turboprops are great in that once the start is done you can push up the power levers and go flying.

When I was a low paid professional aviator flying behind a reciprocating engine, we did a thorough check of the airplane in the morning when we saddled up and then did not actually stop and park in the runup area to repeat mag and prop checks during the day unless we thought that a hot start had fouled a plug or had another affirmative reason to want to do a thorough check. You can do a quick mag check while taxiing and if the props worked in the AM and are not slinging lots of oil and grease, they are going to work for the next takeoff of the day.

So I will hazard a guess that the ground controller is getting data to feed to the tower controller and maybe the folks over at approach control about the type of traffic in what order will be coming off the runway.

That said, as someone who operates mostly in the relatively busy northeast, I am surprised to hear that language originating in Colorado.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

Wes, the idea that the jets are ready to go at the end is propaganda. For example virtually all of them only fly on ifr flight plans, it doesn't matter if there is not a cloud in the state, and it they are only going to Eagle about 15 miles away or Rifle 40 miles away. So they must have IFR clearance for takeoff and it is not unusual for that to take some time once they are ready at the end. And they will also often sit on the runway for few moments after being cleared for takeoff.

I could do a mag check while taxing, but sort of like texting while driving that is not the best procedure and not the safest. And there are other items on the just before flight check list other than just the engine run up. My check takes less than a minute, but the tower guys will give you the same line even if it is a slow day and there is not another airplane moving. And I am not using IFR service nor waiting for that clearance.

Here is Aspen they added 1000 feet to the runway length. Now some folks will claim there is a budget shortfall, but I can tell you there is no shortage of Federal funds for more concrete for such a runway or for more and new control towers, even if they have one already.
The longer runway gurus built the runway extension , but didn' t put a run up area at the new end. So now if more than one plane goes down to the end, it must sit on and block the only taxiway(actually, since there was plenty of money for concrete they even built a taxiway on the other side, but it doesn't connect to anything)
So the result is they try to get the piston airplanes to do without the run up and pre flght check at the end, The other issue is if you taxi all the way to the end and have to wait behind a G5 , their exhaust is coming right into your face, and I'll bet it is not healthy in a matter of moments.

I have never heard the phrase "ready reaching" used anywhere.

I don't fly jets but I doubt if the procedure for any major U S airline is to do their pre takeoff checklist while they are taxiing. Is it?

And I don't fly a turboprop,and I don't doubt that many of them may do their checklist while on the roll, and not repeat items for each takeoff during the day.
But if there was an accident that had anything to do with props not working right after takeoff, or even a trim or flap setting, and there was an FAA hearing or a civil court case and it was found that the pilots skipped this item on a checklist, what would be the likely finding?

At IAD if they send me from Landmark all the way to 30 (or worse), I'll often have my runup done by the time I get to the end. It's a two+ mile taxi.

so do the runup somewhere else. are you angry because they ask you the question in order to avoid traffic congestion at the end or because they didn't add concrete at the end for you?

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

Wes, the idea that the jets are ready to go at the end is propaganda. For example virtually all of them only fly on ifr flight plans, it doesn't matter if there is not a cloud in the state, and it they are only going to Eagle about 15 miles away or Rifle 40 miles away. So they must have IFR clearance for takeoff and it is not unusual for that to take some time once they are ready at the end. And they will also often sit on the runway for few moments after being cleared for takeoff.

.....

I don't fly jets but I doubt if the procedure for any major U S airline is to do their pre takeoff checklist while they are taxiing. Is it?

And I don't fly a turboprop,and I don't doubt that many of them may do their checklist while on the roll, and not repeat items for each takeoff during the day.
But if there was an accident that had anything to do with props not working right after takeoff, or even a trim or flap setting, and there was an FAA hearing or a civil court case and it was found that the pilots skipped this item on a checklist, what would be the likely finding?

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Yes, it is expected that turbine aircraft are ready for takeoff when they reach the runway threashold. We accomplish our pre-takeoff checklists (even including engine starts) while taxiing, which is perfectly safe and normal in a multi-pilot environment. Regarding getting clearance at the end of the runway, really the only time that is happening is at uncontrolled airports. At towered fields, the jets have their clearances before engine start. Many jets have "cleared for takeoff" checklists that are run after takeoff clearance is received, and some run longer than others. That's why you typically don't see a jet roll onto the runway and blast off as quickly as you see a piston plane do so.

ASE is a special case in that it's a one way in/one way out airport for most of the operators there. Ground has to sequence the aircraft just right so that one is ready to roll while one's coming over Triangle Peak.

Most 121/turbine operators complete all their taxi checks prior to taxi now, so all that's typically left is selecting any anti-ice, radar settings, and/or transponder for takeoff.

I don't know, I've seen a lot of piston planes take a lot of time on the runway before commencing takeoff roll for no apparent reason. You weren't ready to take that takeoff clearance if you had much more to do than turn the transponder and strobes and and possibly confirm the DG with the runway heading (though you really should have already set it to the compass while preparing).

I was up in the Dulles tower one time when some small pilot spent an excessive time on the runway while there were aircraft on final. There was some grumbling about student pilots (my wife was with me and she was a student pilot) that the controller apologized for but pointed out things NOT to do.

Bill you bring up a few questions and I'll try to give you some insight and answers to them.
I used to fly into Aspen and Centennial airports somewhat regularly with part 91 and 135 turbojets, but I haven't been there in a few years. I think that the bigest reason the tower asks you if your going to do a run up is so they know if you need to sit on the end of the taxiway and block it for your run up. They just want to know if they'll have access to the end if they need it for someone else, probably just out of habit on the slow days. Looking at the airport diagram I see the old run up area, you could ask to use that at A8 for your run up on your initial call up. Also, they need to coordinate ASE departures with Denver for arrivials into ASE, traffic you may not know about at the time. Aspen being one way in and one way out is very critical in this respect, Why they do this at Centennial is a mystery to me. Maybe some pilots of piston planes do the run up while taxiing, and others don't, they just like to know in advance what to expect. Most of these guys aren't pilots and they sometimes don't know what we as pilots can and cannot do. I know it can be frustrating sometimes but don't be too hard on them.

Why they didn't pave a run up area on the new end is probably a mistake in the long run. They may eventually do that sometime down the line. Looking at the airport diagram again, I see the new taxiways on the other side. I can see that being used when someone is on the runway, ready for takeoff, and for some reason they need to clear the runway quickly, they can turn left on BB and hold on B and still be clear of the runway. It's quicker than going all the way up to A8.

Yes it's true that jets really don't need any run up, once they're started and the oil temp is at a certain number, they're ready to go. Certain items do need to be checked on the taxiway, like brakes, steering and thrust reversers. If I remember King Airs correctly, there has to be a prop check at a certain rpm, something you might do at the run up pad, and that may be only the first flight of the day. There are other line up checks done only after you get your takeoff clearance, like strobes, landing lights, pitot heat and engine and wing de-ice if needed. At a high altitude airport like Aspen, if I feel the need to spend a few seconds after takeoff clearance to visually confirm switches and configuration before I add full power, I'll definitely do that.

I'm sure all part 121 operators fly IFR on all the legs, FAA regs and company regs both require it. Many part 91 and 135 turbine operators do the same, even on the short legs like to Eagle. Think about it, ASE to EGE is 15 miles but about a 6-7 minute flight. There's a lot happening on a short flight like that, after takeoff checks, radio calls, before landing checks, changing nav and comm radios, adjusting pressurization for the landing. The last thing I want to deal with is Eagle not knowing we're arriving in advance by being a "pop up" flight VFR.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Just to be clear, Aspen is not a one way runway, is is not that short downhill one in the Caribbean.
United and the other airlines can and do land on runway 33 part of the time, not just the straight in on rnwy 15. 33 is via a right downwind, and not a problem in VMC weather. Corporate pilots may not be as comfortable flying downwind and base to 33. 15 is uphilll and most local pilots will use it until the tailwind gets up to about 10 knots, then go to 33.
And while there are times when it is very busy here, especially with jets, there are many times when there is not a jet moving.

There is only the LDA and VOR/DME approach to runway 15, not 33 but that is not any different than many airports like FNL or APA that are not in a mountain valley.

I really had 2 points to make: First, nothing the FAA controller does should negatively impact safety. Trying to influence a pilot to skip the runup and preflight check or to do it somewhere like a parking area or sometime other than just before you call ready for takeoff, is not good procedure.
Next, because they added the 1000 feet of runway extension and did not include a new runup area at the end is not the fault of any of us local pilots and we should not bear the hassle of it.

They won't admit it, but it is pretty obvious that the longer runway is part of the campaign to bring larger 737 etc, airlines in, which the community has rejected because of the noise issue mostly.

As someone who has made this my home for 40 years it is hard to see big city ways come to our beautiful area.

I think the taxiway on the other side, which now sits empty and goes nowhere might be in the event a 2nd FBO is started and goes on that side. Lot's of money at stake and to be made on that one, I think.

You are correct Bill that Aspen is not a one way runway, but most of the time it is for most turbine operators. Most jets will choose to land straight in rather than circle, and some company operations manuals may prohibit it. Also, probably most jets are limited to no more than a 10kt tailwind for takeoff and landings in their limitations section of the aircraft manual.
Because of the elevation and length of the runway, it can get real short in the summer if you want to go somewhere farther than maybe Denver. The truth is, that there's a huge performance penalty on takeoff, jets always have to plan on losing an engine at near rotation speed, and be able to clear obsticles at the end of the runway, let alone the ones farther down valley.

I do agree with you 100% that ATC should not do anything to negatively impact safety. Pilots should be assertive enough to say to ATC anytime that they need to do something for safety and not let themselves be talked in to something they shouldn't or couldn't do.
An example of this is at my home town airport. Almost all the time when landing my Champ, the tower will ask me "where are you parking" while still rolling out, sometimes the tail is still up when they ask. At that point I'm still flying the plane and I don't want to be distracted until I get off the runway and have things under control. I wont answer them until I'm clear of the runway, then we'll talk about parking information. I'm sure they just do this out of habit by trying to expedite traffic. I don't think they realize that I just can't touchdown and jump on the brakes and make a certain turnoff like a Cessna 172.

As for the other aspect of the west side taxiways and length. I'm not familiar with the latest local politics and what may be the future plans for the airport. I do agree that I would not like to see larger jets in my hometown airport too. Unfortunately Aspen is a beautiful place and that attracts a lot of people, and some of them have deep pockets that has a certain amount of influence.

Bill,

91.3 states "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If you think that ATC is influencing your decision to operate safely, you have every right per the regulations to say the magic word 'unable'. This isn't about the FAA trying to dictate how you operate your aircraft...this is about ATC sequencing the massive amount of arrivals and departures into an airport that was never designed to handle such traffic.

Also, pilots are creatures of habit. We ALWAYS do the run-up at the end of the runway...that is, for the paved-runway folks. What about on an icy taxiway? How about on a gravel strip? Or even on floats? As a pilot, you have to adapt to the situation at hand. Surely, we can all fly the magenta line from A to B, but when something gets in the way, we need to re-think the magenta line philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

...When a pilot of a small piston engined plane like me in my Bonanza calls for taxi to the runway, the tower asks, "Will you need a run up?" This is really dumb, of course we need and should do a run up, just as we were taught when we learned to fly. Them asking this over and over, every time before taxi is not going to talk me out of what I learned and what I know is right and safe....

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a friendly question is that intimidating? thin skin, huh? gosh, they're just worried about the thousands of folks who DON'T do runups before EVERY takeoff and crash and burn right before they make it to 200'. after all, that there hi altitude makes some flatlanders a bit oxygen-deprived and they might forget stuff. and since when is a Bonanza a small plane? Cri-Cri, now, there's a small plane.

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Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com

a friendly question is that intimidating? thin skin, huh?

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Agreed. There's a simple answer to the question: "Affirmative." Or even "Yes, thanks." The latter may not be ICAO approved, but it gets the point across.

Agreed that asking a pilot if he needs to do a runup is definitely not an intimidation tactic. You're the PIC, you do what you need to operate your plane safely, whether it be a Fly Baby or 737.

Pa11 and Ryan,
Yes, I can resist the FAA suggestion to skip or do the checklist in a less than ideal manner, and do it as I know and was taught.
But let's have some balance, when it comes pay time at the end of the month let's all pilots ask the tower folks, "Do you really need that pay check this month?"
Or when they go to a restaurant, have the server ask if they "really need him to wash his hands before he handles their food, or" should the doctor really use fresh gloves before examining them?"
They can always say yes.

And let's ask all jet pilots if the want to cancel IFR on clear days as soon as they contact approach or if they want to land Rwy 33 anytime there is a tailwind.

The tower people, like any FAA people should be doing things that encourage safety or at best be neutral, not be an obstacle, even a small one to doing it the right way. And there are many student pilots at APA who may start doing the wrong thing.

And PA11, there are many times when there is hardly any traffic here as well as the crowded times.

Champdriver, you hit on another annoying thing ATC often does and that of talking to you and even giving directions while you are still in the landing roll.

I usually just ignore them myself. They also love to give you takeoff directions and clearance freqencies whild you are taxiing on the times when you are using departure control. I usually point out to them than I don't have a secretary to record all that while I am taxiing.

I once took an IRF refresher from a Chicago company and the CFI was also a controller. He said 92% of controllers are not pilots and really have little clue on flying an airplane.

Controllers at their best are like the ones at Oshkosh, at their worst it seems like they think they are getting paid by the word.

By the way, I don't think that in VMC, going right downwind and right base to land on rwy 33 is considered a circling approach, it is just a pattern, just like some jets who come from the south and land on 15.
The airlines do it often, whenever the tailwind on 15 gets up. They don't land with a 15 knot tailwind. Maybe the corporate pilots don't consider the tailwind.

I think a circling approach would be to fly the LDA to rwy 15, then continue and turn left downwind and circle back to land on 15. I have ridden on United one night when they did this and they were barely vmc below the clouds on downwind, but made the landing.

Bill you're insane if you think the tower controller is suggesting you do anything. They need to know for planning purposes. Just like when IFR and you need to divert, ATC will ask you the reason for the divert. They need to know this information. For you to even hint that the phraseology the controller used was "Do you really need to do a runup" is insulting to anyone reading your posts.

Ryan, perhaps calling someone "insane" on this forum is a bit insulting, is it not?
I don't think we have ever met, but it is obvious that, at least from your side, we have more of a discord than just a difference on opinion on a controller procedure. So feel free not to read my posts.

But to try to answer your point: pilots of piston airplanes have been doing a pre take off check list for as long as I can remember, certainly since I was taught at National Air College in 1979, and this involves the flap setting, transponder on, etc. and mags and prop check which is best done right before takeoff.

This has been the correct procedure for the 34years that I have been a pilot and has been verified when I flew with Lew Monger who was a senior FAA official at Denver Stapleton as well as numerous other instructors and check pilots, including a man who was twice T-Birds leader, an Israeli ace, two senior check pilots for United, a RCAF F-18 instructor, and instructors at Flightsafety, as well as a Navy Top Gun instructor and CFIs from both Warbird Adventures and Stallion 51 in Florida,and a 5 time winner of the Unlimited Gold at Reno,and 2 CAF check pilots, and 2 combat vets of air war in Vietnam ( F-4 & A-6),and a Battle of Britain pilot who was Canada all time highest hours instructor.. I think it is reasonable to assume that I was doing it correctly as regards the run up part of flying, since none of these people ever said to do otherwise.I also rode with Steve Hinton once and guess what, he did the run up the same way. A couple of these guys were even big time corporate jet pilots,as well as airline pilots. I almost forgot to mention another EAA CFI, Duane Cole, who you may not have heard of as he wasn't a jet pilot and not even much of a talker,but he has a place in the EAA museum.

So the controller could make a pretty reasonable assumption that I was going to do a check list and run up before take off. There is no need to ask, any more than he would ask a jet pilot if he really needs the full length of the runway available for takeoff or landing.
And when I finish that check and am ready for takeoff, I will call the tower and say so.
The only reason for the controller to ask is to not so subtley suggest that I skip this so as to figuartively move us to the back of the bus.

And I may be underating the controller. Perhaps he really has discovered a new and better way of flying and is really not just the newcomer that he sounds like. I'd never know, because unlike in the past when we had experienced folks like Dick Pittman ( the one the IFR intersection was named after) local pilots are no longer welcome to visit the tower, they have a separate parking area, and I have almost no interaction or knowledge of who is on the radio there.

"You're insane" is unacceptable, flyfalcons.

Sorry. "You're misleading" or "You're conspiracy theorizing" any better?

How about you drop the "you're" - criticize the idea/opinion, not the person,

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Originally Posted by Hal Bryan

How about you drop the "you're" - criticize the idea/opinion, not the person,

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Hey at least I'm getting the "You're/Your" part correct. How about I say "The notion that the tower is suggesting that someone skips a runup is absolutely idiotic", there's no "You're" in that.

I think you've made you're point. How about you just drop it instead?

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

Champdriver, you hit on another annoying thing ATC often does and that of talking to you and even giving directions while you are still in the landing roll.

I usually just ignore them myself. They also love to give you takeoff directions and clearance freqencies whild you are taxiing on the times when you are using departure control. I usually point out to them than I don't have a secretary to record all that while I am taxiing.

I once took an IRF refresher from a Chicago company and the CFI was also a controller. He said 92% of controllers are not pilots and really have little clue on flying an airplane.

Controllers at their best are like the ones at Oshkosh, at their worst it seems like they think they are getting paid by the word.

By the way, I don't think that in VMC, going right downwind and right base to land on rwy 33 is considered a circling approach, it is just a pattern, just like some jets who come from the south and land on 15.
The airlines do it often, whenever the tailwind on 15 gets up. They don't land with a 15 knot tailwind. Maybe the corporate pilots don't consider the tailwind.

I think a circling approach would be to fly the LDA to rwy 15, then continue and turn left downwind and circle back to land on 15. I have ridden on United one night when they did this and they were barely vmc below the clouds on downwind, but made the landing.

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Bill the worst one I ever heard was when I was behind a Baron pilot and they gave him a departure code change right in the middle of his take off roll. I thought that was extremely poor timing and I was really tempted to tell them that. That's one of the worst times to distract a pilot with a trivial task. Myself, I would have completely ignored them and worried about it after I had the plane cleaned up and at a safe altitude.
Granted, they're just a medium sized airport near a major metro area and approach asked them to relay the new code to the pilot before he contacted departure.
We as pilots have to realize that they're not pilots and can only help us so much, we have to look out for ourselves if we want to live long.

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

The only reason for the controller to ask is to not so subtley suggest that I skip this so as to figuartively move us to the back of the bus.

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Hey Bill,

You really need to take a moment and realize the tremendous responsibility you have acting as Pilot in Command. And, you also have to realize that the tower is not out there to serve you...it is to keep two planes from hitting each other on the runway. If you honestly have a problem with the inquiry, I'd ask that you take a moment to understand what ATC is trying to do (especially with a special case like KASE) and remember you can always say no. Just like when you said no to drugs (assuming you did), you might not look cool in front of the "cool kids", but you would have made the right decision.

I think a circling approach would be to fly the LDA to rwy 15, then continue and turn left downwind and circle back to land on 15. I have ridden on United one night when they did this and they were barely vmc below the clouds on downwind, but made the landing.

I have been in and out of Aspen and if you look at the approach charts a circling approach, on any approach, is NOT approved at night. As for ATC.....you are PIC. Just say no. It's that simple.

Waco, the circle to land approach that I rode through on United was a few years back, perhaps 6 years or so ago. It was certainly legal then. It may be that United had FAA approval to fly it and non airlines planes had different rules. I know some years longer ago, Aspen Airways had their own private approach beam of some type, back when they had the Convair 580s (great planes) or after that the Bac 146.
It may also be that when United took over, they were using the same approach and same rules as everyone else, BUT that was before the fatal charter jet accident, which was, I think 5 to 10 years ago. Night approches were legal then, and the accident happened around 7 pm in IMC with blowing snow. One result of this accident was they made night approaches (IFR) illegal. You can still land at night if it is VMC until 11 pm.

Whatever the reason and whenever it was, I know we came in at night, in IMC on United, (pretty sure it was a CRJ) and broke out but did not land straigth in. We went left downwind just under the clouds and back to a safe landing on 15. I was on the left side of the plane so could see the runway as we went around,but it was pretty dark. After the landing as I walked past the cockpit door I looked at the pilot and he looked very glad to be down.

Night approaches are approved, but you are not allowed to circle at night. I believe that I remember the Gulfsteam II crash happened about 7:30pm, after curfew at he time. I know that some airlines have their own procedures but they usually pertain to SID's (standard instrument departures) when the airplane that the airlines use for that route segment can't meet the climb gradient after loosing one or more engines. I do not believe that applies to approaches, so maybe someone else can clarify that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

...pilots of piston airplanes have been doing a pre take off check list for as long as I can remember, certainly since I was taught at National Air College in 1979...This has been the correct procedure for the 34years that I have been a pilot and has been verified when I flew with Lew Monger who was a senior FAA official at Denver Stapleton as well as numerous other instructors and check pilots, including a man who was twice T-Birds leader, an Israeli ace, two senior check pilots for United, a RCAF F-18 instructor, and instructors at Flightsafety, as well as a Navy Top Gun instructor and CFIs from both Warbird Adventures and Stallion 51 in Florida,and a 5 time winner of the Unlimited Gold at Reno,and 2 CAF check pilots, and 2 combat vets of air war in Vietnam ( F-4 & A-6),and a Battle of Britain pilot who was Canada all time highest hours instructor...I also rode with Steve Hinton once and guess what, he did the run up the same way. A couple of these guys were even big time corporate jet pilots,as well as airline pilots. I almost forgot to mention another EAA CFI, Duane Cole, who you may not have heard of as he wasn't a jet pilot and not even much of a talker,but he has a place in the EAA museum...the controller could make a pretty reasonable assumption that I was going to do a check list and run up before take off...The only reason for the controller to ask is to not so subtley suggest that I skip this so as to figuartively move us to the back of the bus.

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i have thunked and thunked on this and still can't figger out how you expect ATC could read your logbook or your resume or your who-ya-rode-with from the tower cab. but what difference does it really make? i still think their runup question is because so many OTHER people, certainly not you'n'me o horrors no, DON'T do a runup. if that's your real beef, then jump on them - not ATC. ATC just provides separation service. to do it, they gotta know yer plans. without info, ATC doesn't know how to anticipate which ones will and which ones won't so they politely ask. even with the answer, ATC is still not sure how long it will take (student pilot? experienced pro?). giv'm a break, just politely answer the question. a question which has nothing to do with downwind approaches or circle-to-land-at-night or whatever else might make a real instructive new thread. if you have time, y'might let 'em know if it's gonna be a short runup or if you have to program nav, teach a student, or whatever. separation services. not mind-readers. climb on course and squawk VFR.

Other terms that all PICs shouldn't be afraid to use:

"Request"
"Unable"
"Negative"
"Affirmative"
"Standby"

Wow, 4 pages, simply because someone got bent out of shape because he didn't like what the tower asked him. Shocking. If a pilot is so thin skinned, that a simple question asking if they need a runup or not is offensive, time to turn the ticket it.

Have you ever considered they are going to plan how to get other planes out if you do your runup at the end of the runway? Or maybe there is a dedicated runup area they are going to send you to. Perhaps its time to stick to non-towered fields for you, if this is such a big deal. Surely you couldn't handle operating at a Class B airport.

May I suggest that if 4 pages is 3.9 too many, lets refrain from going for a 5th page? It looks like all of the points have been covered.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

It is not really the subject of my topic, which was the new verbage of ground controllers, but since a few pilots brought up the subject of IFR approaches into Aspen, here are the facts,
So for "Waco 8 and others:

This is right off the FAA approach charts that I have in front of me.
All 3 charts say, "Procedure not authorized at night". That is for the Loc/Dme , the Vor/Dme and the Rnav/GPS.
Therefore for MOST private general aviation, no IFR approach is legal at night.
The airlines and local charter companies and a few others can get special FAA authoriation to fly the IFR approach at night, but must meet some stiff criteria.
Also all minimums are listed as circleing minimums.
The Loc is 2100 AGL and 3 miles vis, and the other 2 are 2400' and 1 and 3/4 miles.
Thus, from right off the charts, no legal approach at night, and all are listed as circling unlike what some have said.
I think if you broke out to VMC early enough you do not have to circle and may land straight in to Rwy 15, and most may do so.

The airlines have legal authority to fly the approach at night.
Of course insurance regs and company policy may add restrictions to these for some pilots, but this is the official FAA language.

I think the night prohibition was put in after the charter jet accident a few years back.

To Bill and everyone else, here's a link to the AOPA write up on the Gulfstream accident at Aspen. If you go down to the "airport and approach" part, it describes why there are no straight in landing minimums.
In this case it's because of the high desent graident required. I know on a normal LOC or VOR approach that is not aligned to the runway by I think 10 or 15 degrees, (I forget the actual number) only circling minumums are published. In this case at Aspen, they do not expect you to circle to land on 33, they expect you to land on 15.
I hope this is informative
Jim
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2005/sp0504.html

Jim , thanks for the reprint of the accident report. It is chilling and every pilot should read it.
As much as a study in flying and how not to do it ; it is even more a study in the worst side of human nature. The man booking the charter was about as stupid and overbearing as he could have been , and even though the pilots surely knew better they could not bring themselves to say no. I am sure it is very hard in the charter business to say no to a client and have him take his American Express card and the $30,000 fee to a competitor.

My Dad was not a pilot, my Brother was, but Dad was Pres of a corporation. They had a twin like a King Air, and a company pilot, Al Brown. The pilot had only one duty, and that was to fly safely and you could not have paid my Dad any amount to try to talk the pilot into doing something that he thought was dangerous.

I was out to dinner that night in town and came out of the restaurant about 7 pm or just after, about the time of the crash. I recall for sure that it was snowing and most of all blowing gusty winds so at that time it was hard to even see to drive.
A friend was in a jet on the approach, I think near the time of the crash and has decent visibilty, but it was a changeable thing.

One of the very sad things was that they could have landed in Rifle, only 40 air miles away, had a limo waiting for them and been safe in Aspen an hour and a half later, and probably been drinking champagne in the limo on the short drive over. They had to fly past Rifle to get to Aspen and it is a bigger valley and almost always easier to land there.
One of our friends was driving in that night and was first on the crash scene and tried to help the passengers, but there were just pieces and nothing to be done.

It was nice and clear the next morning and I flew my biennial flight review since I had already scheduled it, and we flew right over the wreckage. The were perhaps less than 1/4 mile from making it to the runway.