60 Minutess reports Serious Safety Problems for Allegiant Airlines

There are very serious safety problems at Allegiant found over several years by this study. For instance, in 2 years 100 major maintenance problems and 25 engine failures. The focus of Allegiant is to be a budget carrier and maintenance and safety has taken a back seat. One plane had to return to airport 4 times in a few month s due to in flight failures. CBS interviewed "John Duncan" of the FAA and got no satisfactory answer on lack of oversight on these problems. CBS made a "freedom of information request" for maintenance records and promptly got them from 6 other airlines, but Allegiant refused.
I would not fly on them.

Allegiant has been profitable with as much as a 30% margins, but this is a short term strategy that has long term risk. One of the 2 big advantages that U S airlines has is its safety record. This isnt a major, but still a passenger boards a u S airline with the expectation, almost taken for granted that they are going to get there safely. Maybe delayed, maybe hassled or uncomfortable . but not really in danger. Allegiant is risking this. Think about Coca Cola, you can buy one anywhere in the world and expect is not to be contaminated, its a Coke. That is value beyond even counting. One big accident or even perhaps a series of incidents and folks might avoid getting on Allegiant, though many people look only for the lowest fare at the time they want to go and Allegiant has low ones.

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

One big accident or even perhaps a series of incidents and folks might avoid getting on Allegiant, though many people look only for the lowest fare at the time they want to go and Allegiant has low ones.

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I doubt it will take even one big accident or a series of incident before people start to avoid an airline. Consider the two people sitting in the front. They know when maintenance is lacking. When jobs were scarce, they had a hard choice to make. With the pilot shortage, the decision is getting easier by the day.

I thought the story was biased.
An airline that returns to base when a problem is noted or cancels the flight is doing the proper procedure, even though they know it adds to the number of canceled flight statistics (for 60 Minutes to glorify).
Apparenty the numbers have improved. Why demonize a company and make it fall into bankruptcy? Profit is not greed, it allows for the money to purchase new equipment, as apparently they did recently.
There are two sides to every story.

The FAA has a new policy of helping compliance.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

I thought the story was biased. Profit is not greed, it allows for the money to purchase new equipment, as apparently they did recently.
There are two sides to every story.

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And I thought the story was quite well balanced and 60 Minutes gave the airline every opportunity to respond in an on-air interview and they refused. Why? Because after 50 years of investigative journalism, EVERYONE knows you don't lie to 60 Minutes. And if you do, you do so at your own peril.

I agree, profit is not greed. BUT airline profit at the expense of safety, maintenance, compliance and the lives of your paying passengers as well as your employees is not only greed, neglect and a complete disregard for the well being of those on board, it's also extremely dangerous and criminal.

Yes, there are always 2 sides to a story. But the Allegiant side deliberately and consciously decided not to show up to tell theirs. What could they say, how could they defend themselves against all the evidence and piled up violations.

And that FAA flack was a total disgrace and embarrassment. Firing him(and other FAA staff) is not enough. He/they must be held accountable and sued/charged with gross negligence and deriliction of duty.

And let's not forget who we're dealing with here. The CEO of Allegiant is the former CEO of Valuejet(remember their safety and maintenance violations and the Everglades crash that killed over 100). Same guy, same attitude, same culture oF indiffence and neglect. FOLLOW THE LEADERSHIP, IT ALWAYS STARTS AT THE TOP.

Bill said he wouldn't fly Allegiant. Hell man, I don't fly any deep discount, deep budget airline. Because common sense and logic has to tell you that the only way they can stay in business with such ridicuously low airfares is if they cut some big corners elsewhere. The biggest "elsewhere" corner is always going to be the huge expense of maintenance and safety compliance. So, make your choice folks. Save a few bucks or save your life.

SouthWest is a discount airline. Top of the list in safety, courtesy, etc., as far as I know.
I wouldn't talk to 60 minutes, because they choose to edit as they wish and as I said it is biased.
Even a brand new bridge in Miami can fall and kill you. I am reading a book about engineering failures: To Engineer Is Human, by Henry Petroski. No need for me to comment further, sick with unprevented head cold today.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

SouthWest is a discount airline. Top of the list in safety, courtesy, etc., as far as I know.

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Ya, but there's a huge difference between a discount airline and a "your damn lucky you get a seat to sit on" deep discount airline. When comparing fares with Allegiant, SouthWest is Emirates by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

<*snip*> EVERYONE knows you don't lie to 60 Minutes. And if you do, you do so at your own peril. <*snip*>

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Sorry, just had to point this out.... Not poking at you, Floats, but your comment was a great opening for my comment. EVERYONE may know you don't lie to 60 mins, but they can lie to us, right? Go back and look at the video. Right at the start of the video at about the 8 sec mark, the book page behind the reporter shows a 380 degree compass....

Yeah, insert any airline name in the same story. They all have violations, fines and problems. This was just "beat up on G4 week"

If 60 minutes is out to do a hatchet job (which they were) I wouldn't expect the airline to cooperate because "any information you provide will be used against you" in our broadcast.

Carl, that's silly, the piece wasn't about a compass and CBS didn't make any statement about how many degrees are on a compass.
Marty, what is "G4" that you claim they are beating up on?

As for anyone who claims bias, why would CBS be biased for or against a particular airline? And what facts in the story do you see as false? And yes they had a lot of facts, including actual video shot by passenger of engine fire in flight, smoke in the cockpit, (at least two events) as well as records obtained to compare with industry standards or other airlines. In one event the smoke was from Skydrol or hydrauinc fluid fumes in the cabin on the taxiway. I have had a whiff of leaking hydraulic fluid and it is choking and toxic, would be awful to sit there for over 10 minutes with no O2 and doors shut.

And this is not just hypothetical , if i recall the Value Jet crash , fatal to 110 , was begun by a cargo fire and that the airline already was known for lax safety procedures.

Do "all airlines have safety problems" violations and fines? Southwest has been operating for 47 years, has an execellent reputation as a place to work, and not just word of mouth, the facts are that they have never had a passenger fatality from a crash. They did once overshoot a ice wet runway into a car on the road and with a fatality. And bad as the passenger treatment may be on United which was sort of like Ultimate Fighting for one passenger, and both United and Jet Blue stranding passengers on the plane for 8 hours, no U S major carrier has had a single fatality in bout 5 years, despite the millions of passengers flown. No train, taxi,elevator, escolator, subway, or ship can match that record.
I have no connection with any airline other than owning Southwest stock and used to own a small amount of Am West.

Better sell your SouthWest stock quick. An engine just blew up on a flight a few minutes ago, I heard on the radio.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

Better sell your SouthWest stock quick. An engine just blew up on a flight a few minutes ago, I heard on the radio.

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So you think this is funny? A piece of the engine pierced the fuselage in flight seriously injuring a passenger.
Emergency landing in Philadelphia. Not so funny Bill.

No it isn't funny. Just a coincidence that proves the cold reality that sometimes things still fail on airplanes and we at EAA should know that. And not call for the demonization of those that try to maintain airplanes the best they can.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

And not call for the demonization of those that try to maintain airplanes the best they can.

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Given your undying support of Allegiant in the face of and despite their gross maintenance and safety negligence, I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse. If you have a wife and kids, book them on an Allegiant flight the next time they're travelling and I'll pay for the tickets. Provide the booking information, proof of payment, boarding passes and your bank details and I'll e-transfer the money to your account. Ready, set, go.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

And I thought the story was quite well balanced and 60 Minutes gave the airline every opportunity to respond in an on-air interview and they refused. Why? Because after 50 years of investigative journalism, EVERYONE knows you don't lie to 60 Minutes. And if you do, you do so at your own peril.

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Well...Not going to speculate as to whether 60 Minutes is biased. Whether or not they are, it's easy for them to set up the interview to make the airline look bad. We don't know the amount of detail CBS passed on. Remember, the film crew has been researching the topic for weeks. Unless they know exactly the topic to be discussed, any airline rep could be blindsided.

The CEO, for instance, is not going to be informed about personnel actions at some remote station. Yet, if the cameras are on and he's asked "Why did Joe Smith receive a two week suspension?", he'll look either like an ignoramus or that he's stonewalling if he doesn't know as much as the interviewer did after a month's digging.

Unfair? Yes, but it makes a "More powerful story."

FAR easier to react to specific accusations made in the broadcast.

Ron Wanttaja

Yeah, it's called fear mongering. The media like doing that cause it's good for ratings. Bill G, SWA has been assessed with some of the largest 3 hr ground violations since the rule was enacted. That means they strand people on the plane like everybody else. They have also paid huge fines for improper maint procedures and grounded up to 40 planes at a time which they promptly blame on 3rd party vendor. Value Jet crash was result of 3rd party vendor loading O2 cans (hazmat) on the plane and improperly labeling them, a violation of existing rules. The parent company is responsible for overseeing 3rd party vendors so they are all guilty. Smoke in the cabin....sometimes engine compressors are washed and the subsequent operations puts odor, fumes and 'smoke' in the cabin. Of course passengers think it's the end of the world. I have seen pack ops in humid conditions that blows condensate out the ventilation system and people break out the cameras saying the cabin is filling with acrid smoke (insert eye roll here)

4-5 days ago a SWA flight was in the news because they purposely "flew right into a severe t-storm" and one passenger had to text their next of kin to say goodbye as they were about to die, the news even hyped it up with a flight aware graphic showing how the plane's path was "supposed to go" right through a storm. Of course, was not the actual path the plane took so they jumped to another graphic which showed the plane wandering all over the sky looking for a place to land. The path looked remarkably like a holding pattern but never mind details and facts that this is routine. Can't fear monger like that. Most annoying of all is news people think they have to use the word 'tarmac' at least 15 times every story so they can flaunt their made up aviation vocabulary and show the public how smart they are.

I would think an aviation board would know the news hypes up stories to scare the bejeesus out of average joe and it's not just aviation stories.

Sadly, today an engine exploded in flight, not just caught on fire, and the sharpnel broke the window and killed the lady passenger sitting there. The NTSB says about 3 or 4 of these engine failures happen per year, a very commonly used engine. There is an AD from last year on the fan blades, so there much be some history of problems. There is not much left of the front of the engine, just a gaping hole and part of the nacelle left. Dont know if they can find the specific cause. It was a SWA 727 and landed otherwise safely in Philldelphia. Prayers to the lady and her family.

I think ground personel who comfirmed the smoke from the engine were not "fear mongering". And I have been on planes with what you call condensate in the cabin, and it did not impede breathing nor did the captain have to evacuate the plane like they did for the Skydrol fumes in the cabin. And when the repairman left the cotter pin out of the flight controls and the Allegiant pilot was sharp enough to abort just before lift off, the faa inspector recommended max fines for this. Was he just "fear mongering to scare people? Maybe they didnt really need that cotter pin? Or they could have just waited for the accident and maybe found the cause in the wreckage.
Your story about the SWA flght in turbulence has nothing to do with the 60 minutes report about Allegiant. Did you even see the 60 minutes report or just contest it from a vacumn?

Wasn't it great in the good old days when there was no investigative reporting to interfere and the world's largest luxury liner could put to sea with life boats for 1/3 thanneeded.

The uncontained engine failure is very similar to a 1973 incident with National Airlines flight 27

Why did 60 Minutes include the cotter pin report? It was ARR contractor mistake.

I fly Allegiant airlines on a regular basis and have never had an issue while on any of the flights. I actually flew home home from Florida yesterday on an Allegiant Airbus 320. I'm more worried about the traffic to and from the airport.

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Originally Posted by mcmurphy

I fly Allegiant airlines on a regular basis and have never had an issue while on any of the flights. I actually flew home home from Florida yesterday on an Allegiant Airbus 320. I'm more worried about the traffic to and from the airport.

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I agree, the most dangerous part of commercial flying is driving to and from the airport.

In spite of that, you're regular flying on Allegiant means you're a very, very lucky guy. You should buy lottery tickets.

The article pointed out that much of the maintenance problems are with the older MD-80s hard to get good parts for. Allegiant has bougth some Airbus 320s which should be better, at least at first, but they operate both types. By the way, I didnt lose any money with Bernie Madoff, doesnt mean he was on the level. I never had a problem on Southwest, doesn't mean they didnt yesterday. Actually I have never been attacked by cops even on United.