I am starting a scratch build wood airplane and wood like to know the required documentation to the FAA. Do I need a build-time logbook? Lot's of pictures?, ect? When does the FAA get involved in my project?
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I am starting a scratch build wood airplane and wood like to know the required documentation to the FAA. Do I need a build-time logbook? Lot's of pictures?, ect? When does the FAA get involved in my project?
Never if you use a DAR for the final inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrom
Here is a link to the FAA Advisory Circular AC 20-27G. Not sure if "G" is the latest edition but it has all the dope.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...C%2020-27G.pdf
The basic purpose of the logbook is to prove that the airplane is amateur-built. When you present the aircraft for its airworthiness inspection, you will need to provide documentary evidence that *you* built the airplane. A logbook with numerous entries showing the days you worked, the tasks performed, comments about problems and corrections, etc. is pretty well irrefutable. Especially if it's a hard-copy log...different pens used for entries, variations in handwriting, a bit of sawdust blown between the pages, and, as one inspector said, an occasional drop or two of blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrom
Pictures are a good part of that, of course, but they give another advantage: Years later, if you develop problems, you can look at the pictures to refresh your memory as to how that section was assembled.
With a good hard-copy log spanning the years, and a set of pictures, the inspector will be confident your airplane wasn't built by a "hired gun." It will also impress him or her with your thoroughness, always a good thing.
The FAA gets involved when you apply for an N-number, and when you apply for your airworthiness certificate. You can certainly apply for the N-number early, but you put in FAA Form 8130-6 and AC Form 8050-3 as you near completion.
The FAA describes the process in Advisory Circular AC20-27, Marty posted the link
Ron Wanttaja
I have/had used a build log website that also had "export to .pdf" capability for printing. So I had printed all that - hundreds of pages by the time it was done. But to get those "I'm in the photo" pictures out where they were easy to see, I printed those and taped them to pages in a separate binder. Over the entire build, something like 3000 photos, there were maybe only 25 with me in the shot. Had all that stuff in binders when the DAR was there. He didn't look at it. In the ~2 hours or so of his entire visit, he pretty well got the idea of what I had and had not done myself. And since I built it mostly "from plans" (only buying a small fraction of the total parts involved from the kit supplier), he didn't get anywhere near questioning the "51-percent-ness" of the project.
Given that you declare you are "scratch building", I would interpret that to mean you are cutting out all your own parts and making all assemblies on your own. For documenting what you did, there is no predetermined or required format. Get in the habit of writing something down for each day (or logically divided portion of the project - such as "this week, completed elevator structure"), and take a few photos that show this building is obviously going on in your own garage or hangar (or dining room, as the case may be). If you have the mountain of documentation sitting there, in the course of going over the airplane and paperwork with you, they will get the clear impression that you did what you said you did. Oh, and the number of hours doesn't matter. The "51 percent-ness" is determined by items on a checklist - you check off 50%+1 of the items that you did yourself (for the quantity of items that are found on your particular design), then it's "amateur built". That's how there's so many kits out there that save builders hundreds, if not over 1000 hours, but still count as "51+%" amateur built.
There's a bunch of stuff that doesn't count for or against it either way. Like you don't have to build your own engine, but if you do, it doesn't add to the "amateur" percentage, similarly - paying for upholstery manufactuing/installation, avionics installation, painting, and probably some more...
But as Marty said, get that AC - it is the Bible of how to get a project through the FAA's part of the process... Oh, and revision G is showing as the current revision.
That's comforting, since the avionics and other "off-the-shelf" stuff makes up a large chunk of the number of items on the aircraft. Even still, I'm going to keep a list of every part of the aircraft and try to figure it out from there. The 51% rule is proving to be the bane of my designer existence for everything but my LSA design.Quote:
There's a bunch of stuff that doesn't count for or against it either way. Like you don't have to build your own engine, but if you do, it doesn't add to the "amateur" percentage, similarly - paying for upholstery manufactuing/installation, avionics installation, painting, and probably some more...
For what its worth, avionics and a number of other items do NOT factor into the 51% rule to qualify as amateur built. Go check the FAA Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist in FAA Order 8130.35 Amateur-Built National Kit Evaluation Team. Its all on the internet and anyone with questions on whether their effort will qualify as amateur built should be familiar with this info.
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS
Thanks all! I guess I need to purchase a log book. My plans tell me I need to have the FAA come over and sign off the stabilizer before I cover it, but I have read the FAA doesn't do the "house calls" anymore (since the 1980's) and you don't need sign offs from them during construction. Is this correct?
Even if they don't, it's still a good idea to get as many people as possible (especially experienced builders or engineers) to look at vital structures before they are sealed up. More eyes on something is always a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrom
I think that's what the EAA tech advisors are for :)Quote:
Originally Posted by steveinindy
Yeah.....but not all areas have a lot of them. Besides, I don't trust just one person to look at something and make sure I didn't botch it or flat out overlook a step. I'm fully planning on hosting parties at the hangar and handing out magnifying glasses.
You should absolutely get a tech counselor to look at your project in various stages, they have a nice little sheet that they fill out so it's even more irrefutable you did the work.Since I'm basically the most stubborn person on the planet, I would never do what "steveinindy" is going to do, I really don't want that many drama queens nitpicking my plane. My suggestion is find someone who has built something similar and actually flies it, to look it over, it's a major plus if that guy is an EAA tech counselor. My logs consist of a steno note pad with dated entries and a receipt folder from parts and materials. I have some pictures but not that many, I need a few more with me in them although if the inspector comes out to the farm he'll see where it was built. My bet is unless it looks suspect to him he may never look at them.I'll let you all know hopefully this summer. ;)
OK how about us one? Your EX. burns or throws every thing away. Gone every thing! So now it's been sitting in the barn for along time. So you want to make it legal to fly some where now. Say you bought it ? and go from there? Nice bird, but it's only a grass strip plane now,as it sits or what ever. Migged every Al. tube.
Cry for the DAR?
Rebuiild the logs? experimental exhibition? passive non-compliance? oh you said legal. buy paperwork /and plate from a scrapped similar model, oh that legal thing again. part it out and start over? lots of choices not many good or easy ones, take consolation in knowing you are not the first to feel this pain.
There's a reason why I keep copies of everything related to my design in at least two places physically and scan all the documents and e-mail them back to myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samyguy
Such is the problem with designing and building an entirely new aircraft. Also, when you're designing something a little more sporty than an RV and bigger than your standard homebuilt, you're going to likely be out of the "comfort zone" of a lot of the tech counselors.Quote:
My suggestion is find someone who has built something similar and actually flies it, to look it over, it's a major plus if that guy is an EAA tech counselor.
Just an ordinary three-ring binder should be OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrom
Ron Wanttaja
Depends on what kind of plane it is...if it's a typical garden-variety scratch-built airplane, the inspector won't need as much convincing. If you show up with a nearly-ready-to-fly RV-10, they might want to be sure you didn't have a hired gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samyguy
Are you the original builder? Shouldn't be too hard. If it were me, I'd start a new log. First entry would be along the lines of, "Previous builder's log missing. To the best of my recollection, construction was started on XX/XX/XXX, and approximately XXX hours had been expended so far. Commercial parts used include XXXXX, XXXXX, and XXXX."
If you did the MIG welding like your posting implies, grab some scrap tubing and make up a structure, taking pictures along the way, especially having someone take a picture of you actually welding it.
Contact your local FSDO. Ask to speak to an airworthiness inspector. Explain the situation, and while you can't document the construction so far, you can demonstrate that you have the requisite welding skills that would be required to build.
Again, depending on the type of aircraft, I don't think you'll have much of a problem. Ultimately, you have to submit a signed affidavit that the majority of the aircraft was built for education and recreation. THAT'S the official claim. The logbooks just back it up. With enough coordination with the FAA in advance, I don't think there'd be too much of a problem.
Ron Wanttaja
Okay, for most of us "normal" builders this won't be a problem.:rollseyes:I won't bore you with my tube and fabric vagabond copy.:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by steveinindy
HAHAHA! that gave me a laugh, but that is the way it SHOULD be.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
Was the original question answered? If not, the FAA will not inspect your stab. As folks have mentioned, the FAA expects you to take pictures and log your work. The log books and photos are presented to the DAR who does the final inspection. Not only does the FAA not do house calls any more, I understand that most final inspections are referred to DAR's (Designated Airworthiness Representatives). The FAA would be "free" but you pay for the DAR. So all of the suggestions about builders logs are great advice.
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS
Well the choice is easy. Sell the project for the $1/pound scrap price, or talk to the FAA. Me, I'd talk to the FAA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Racegunz
Ron Wanttaja
Oh, please do. :P In fact, if you need any help, let me know. I'm always happy to offer an extra set of hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Racegunz
....and I've found most DARs to be pleasant, reasonable and willing to help as much as they can in unusual circumstances. As Ron pointed out, it can't hurt to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by WLIU
To the OP, if G-d forbid nothing works and you absolutely can't get it approved for flight, might you consider letting my research group use the cockpit structure for a crash test to help further aviation safety? We'll even cut it up for scrapping when we're done. The same goes for anyone with an non-flyable and non-repairable aircraft of any variety sitting around. We might actually also be able to offer a tax write-off soon for such donations once our NPO status comes through.
Thanks for the replies. Good stuff, I think ,I'll make some calls to DAR's. I supose they have the last say in the matter, and if they are willing to work with me, they will let know what is needed to pass.
again thanks for the replies
Buy the EAA homebuilder paperwork kit - all the forms are in there WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND EXAMPLES OF THEM FILLED OUT, as well as when one should submit them. It also contains decals for the dash and other stuff.
http://www.shopeaa.com/amateur-built...cationkit.aspx
I like to take bits of my plane to the monthly EAA meeting. 1) I'm a hopeless ham who likes to show off; 2) I get great feedback and suggestions, often not of the positive nature; 3) it ensures the meeting won't be boring.
I'd suggest you find out who your DAR is and meet them - it's an enlightening experience worth the time. You'll find out what they look for, common mistakes they find, and advice on safe builds.
Our DAR says he rarely looks at build logs, as it only takes a few questions to figure out if a fellow has actually built the plane or not. Usually the builder references it if there's a question on how something is done.